A GrangerPub gameplay disruption log

[Woodbury]

@DevHC

all of this has been generally reported by many, but very little has been done to solve these issues.

http://forum.grangerhub.org/c/servers/grangerpub-report-players-and-request-unbans

The last 30 days have 3 reports. Maybe players can be more helpful for the community if they actually REPORT irregularities in here with EVIDENCE, so admin can properly take action.
This logs serves no purpose at all since it doesn’t contain evidence regarding game disruptions , you can always say “X person did this” but how do we know is true?

[Helper_Bot]

@DevHC

purpose of this is, through the exposure of facts, humiliation of the GrangerHub staff, and thus provoking it start providing solutions.

Is this as in making admins or players problems public to embarrass them or make then feel like the evil person for their actions maybe through anger/rage sounds like a bad idea making players feel bad could make them permanently leave or not want to play the server talking with them and finding a solution while telling them the consequences sounds better

[romdos]

Players can use callvote kick to remove disruptive players who are breaking rules. Anyone can collect screenshots, demos, or provide condumps of any rule violations in a report; however, we recognize this system is very flawed - everything would be better handled in-game with a /report command and peer-reviewed admin-action log.

Additionally for 1.3 release, we aim to use player karma/reputation system to prevent low karma players from doing certain game actions and automatically kick them (or maybe just spectate them) for poor behavior (and maybe automatically revert their bullshit).

@DevHC

{NoS}face deconned the reactor, and rebuilt it at an open location.

This is essentially griefing and certainly violates rules. Face should be warned and banned if it continues.

[Helper_Bot]

@romdos

This is essentially griefing and certainly violates rules. Face should be warned and banned if it continues.

But there is no evidence of this maybe shown proof (unless i’m not seeing this) then we should warm him

[romdos]

@DevHC

the purpose of this is, through the exposure of facts, humiliation of the GrangerHub staff, and thus provoking it 2 start providing solutions.

I don’t think there’s anything to expose or anyone to humiliate. The simple truth is that admins can’t catch every problem™ that players might cause, and that admins are also players too and will make bad decisions. The rules are not just a list of things for players to avoid, they’re also the guidelines for what players should do in response to deviations from the rules, and also what should be expected from admins when rules are broken.

Reports of admin abuse can be sent anonymously if needed - and are taken seriously. Admins have indeed been removed from our team because of gross violations of rules or admin guidelines.

@DevHC helping players have consistently enjoyable play experiences free of problem causing players - and giving them tools to help manage issues on their own should be the positive intent here.

[DevHC]

@Woodbury

@DevHC

all of this has been generally reported by many, but very little has been done to solve these issues.

http://forum.grangerhub.org/c/servers/grangerpub-report-players-and-request-unbans

The last 30 days have 3 reports. Maybe players can be more helpful for the community if they actually REPORT irregularities in here with EVIDENCE, so admin can properly take action.

CBA,¹ just like everyone else, because the current state of GrangerPub is the worst on all 3 counts of the proper game server operation with griefers in play:

1. in case of malicious decons, the game is often disrupted beyond repair.
2. unless an act of malice is completely recognized and attributed, players r maximally burdened with an encumbering process of proactively preparing to and reporting cases.
3. admins don’t have proper tools, and rely on players’ involvement to detect griefing.

after more than a year of continuous failures of game security, the server is still not even monitored at peak population times by disciplined, willing and capable admins.

¹ i’ve made a great share of reports, and i still somewhat continue to do so, though only in PROPER™ channels, like IRC — this is a protest against the retarded system currently in operation, and this thread is itself a protest; i’ve even made extreme cases of log analysis

This logs serves no purpose at all

WRONG. the purpose is explained in the 1st post.

you can always say “X person did this” but how do we know is true?

ind33d. it is, in general, impossible to post conventional evidence, since descriptions, condumps, screenshots, demos, etc. can all be manipulated or simply fake. the only hard evidence is the server logs.

it doesn’t contain evidence regarding game disruptions

r u really surprized ?

[DevHC]

@Helper_Bot

Is this as in making admins or players problems public to embarrass them or make then feel like the evil person for their actions maybe through anger/rage sounds like a bad idea making players feel bad could make them permanently leave or not want to play the server talking with them and finding a solution while telling them the consequences sounds better

for godfuck’s sake, concentrate on the proper use of punctuation, not the capitalization of sentences. i have no fucking idea¹ what u just said, but let me say this:

the GrangerHub/GrangerPub staff displayed embarrassingly little competence to get the server properly monitored, to enable reporting methods and to implement administration tools.

¹ NOT

[DevHC]

@romdos

@DevHC

{NoS}face deconned the reactor, and rebuilt it at an open location.

This is essentially griefing and certainly violates rules. Face should be warned and banned if it continues.

now u must surely realize how WRONG the situation is. based on „daily-multiple” and the above reaction, the there should be 100s of bans and plenty of demotions.

@romdos

admins can’t catch every problem™

usually if there’s a lack of admins. this condition is not uncontrollable, and it is the duty of the staff to shape this condition. after a year, there have been insignificant changes.

[MaeJong]

@DevHC

the GrangerHub/GrangerPub staff displayed embarrassingly little competence to get the server properly monitored, to enable reporting methods and to implement administration tools.

There has never been a question of implementing administration tools on gpub? I’ve always been answered “slackers is OBSOLETE™”.

@DevHC

usually if there’s a lack of admins. this condition is not uncontrollable, and it is the duty of the staff to shape this condition. after a year, there have been insignificant changes.

Insignificant changes in admin activity? It is kind of hard to find people in every timezone out there, that play 6 hours per day each.

@DevHC

1. in case of malicious decons, the game is often disrupted beyond repair.

5% of the cases is not often – Given there is an admin online to revert.

@DevHC

2.
unless an act of malice is completely recognized and attributed, players r maximally burdened with an encumbering process of proactively preparing to and reporting cases.
3. admins don’t have proper tools, and rely on players’ involvement to detect griefing.

These statements are relatively true and dependant of eachother. It seems rather obvious admins should be able to check the logs easi(er)ly. Being able to see what’s going on the server, and admining it from IRC (KEK.) could also be a major improvement to some admins’ activity.

I still believe that most of the problem lies in activity and competence over having the “appropriate” (We are lucky enough, 1.1 QVMs come with a handful of nice shit) tools.

(Also, lost access to the logs again because I swapped computers. Note that apparently cron, sparky and I are the only 3 (active) admins that have access to the server logs at the time.)

[DevHC]

@MaeJong

It is kind of hard to find people in every timezone out there, that play 6 hours per day each.

then u don’t just find a few admins, but enough to cover all time frames with reasonable probability: the more statistically active the time frame, the more admins covering it is desired. fortunately, the more the time frame is active, the greater the selection of players, and thus, in general, candidates for admins.

@DevHC

1. in case of malicious decons, the game is often disrupted beyond repair.

5% of the cases is not often – Given there is an admin online to revert.

i feel it’s more like 25% when there is an admin to revert. this includes cases where a full revert is not possible due to buildable bounding box imprecision (by the old, crappy code), and cases where partial damage is not reverted or some damage is suffered during the downtime, allowing the „fair” destruction of many weakened buildables; this already is „beyond repair”, but in most cases, even a loss follows.

I still believe that most of the problem lies in activity and competence over having the “appropriate” (We are lucky enough, 1.1 QVMs come with a handful of nice shit) tools.

fact.

Note that apparently cron, sparky and I are the only 3 (active) admins that have access to the server logs at the time.

the situation may get worse due to mr. DICKBUTT: he believes that since he is the server machine operator, he is the only one who should have access to the logs.

[MaeJong]

@DevHC

i feel it’s more like 25% when there is an admin to revert. this includes cases where a full revert is not possible due to buildable bounding box imprecision (by the old, crappy code), and cases where partial damage is not reverted or some damage is suffered during the downtime, allowing the „fair” destruction of many weakened buildables; this already is „beyond repair”, but in most cases, even a loss follows.

Aside from !revert not handling overrides correctly, even though you can’t heal the damage the structures suffer from a basenade, the ones that will get reverted will have full health. It balances it out a bit, obviously when it is just a “bleed-nade” and everything is at 1/4th of their life, shit’s fucked.
In most cases, a good usage of pause and revert is more than sufficient to handle those problems (arm overriding node? The players will rebuild it. Sure it’s not optimal, but it only very slightly impacts the game and has functionned for 10 years.). Reverting is also more stressful (holy-shit-people-will-rape-my-ass-and-burn-my-house kind of stress) and less efficient in SD due to those reasons.

5% with a competent admin online, 25% with N16634S. (We are talking beyond any possible repair.)

All revert needs is 1. fixing the override, 2. being able to heal (or de-damage) damaged buildables, 3. people who don’t nig up when using it, and/or 4. a way to de-revert reverted shit.

[Ckit]

Ckit log entry 221 : devhc is still ignorant and WRONG enough to assume that anything he writes down in this pitiful log of his will be considered fact by the administration and player base.

[Shuffle]

@DevHC

there have been recurrent, daily-multiple gameplay disruptions

There are far more gameplay disruptions that are dealt with than ones that aren’t.

@DevHC

both committed by unregistered players and admins

If I see an admin breaking rules as you’ve described then they would be demoted/punished. If you have no evidence of this then I won’t take action.

@DevHC

that is coupled with some admins’ lack of training

Most of our admins are more than competent enough to know how to use a simple command without instruction. Furthermore there is a thread on the admin forums that gives instructions on how to use commands, and when to use them.

@DevHC

all of this has been generally reported by many, but very little has been done to solve these issues.

There have been very few reports on the forums of players breaking rules, and with no evidence we shouldn’t do anything. This thread is an example as it lacks evidence, it’s just your word against someone else’s.

@DevHC

starting 2016-05-30, i’ll be collecting, for just the record, all game disruptions encountered and recognized by me. the purpose of this is, through the exposure of facts, humiliation of the GrangerHub staff, and thus provoking it to start providing solutions.

This is all completely useless, because:

@DevHC

as such, details like the date/time, the map, etc. will not be noted in general

How do you expect anything to be done if you refuse to report griefers properly?

@DevHC

after more than a year of continuous failures of game security, the server is still not even monitored at peak population times by disciplined, willing and capable admins.

The server is monitored by unpaid people who have things to do other than sit on trem 24/7. We neither expect nor ask people to sit for several hours a day doing nothing but monitor the activity of players. At peak times when there are 30+ players on I regularly see 4-5 admins who deal with the problems that occur.

@DevHC

i’ve made a great share of reports, and i still somewhat continue to do so, though only in PROPER™ channels, like IRC

This is idiotic. We’ve laid out a proper way to make reports, you ignore it, and now you’re complaining about your reports not being dealt with.

@DevHC

it is, in general, impossible to post conventional evidence, since descriptions, condumps, screenshots, demos, etc. can all be manipulated or simply fake. the only hard evidence is the server logs.

They’re also better than nothing, and without them nothing will be done, because we won’t ban people based purely on conjecture.

@DevHC

the GrangerHub/GrangerPub staff displayed embarrassingly little competence to get the server properly monitored, to enable reporting methods and to implement administration tools.

We have at least 35 active admins in most timezones across the world. We have asked for extra commands to help out admins, and afaik they’re being implemented onto 1.3.

@DevHC

now u must surely realize how WRONG the situation is. based on „daily-multiple” and the above reaction, the there should be 100s of bans and plenty of demotions.

We do not have the playerbase to ban hundreds of people without it having a major effect on the server. We also have demoted admins several times for abusing, and if you actually provided evidence or reported an admin’s abuse of power then they too would be reported.

@DevHC

usually if there’s a lack of admins. this condition is not uncontrollable, and it is the duty of the staff to shape this condition. after a year, there have been insignificant changes.

The server is not nearly as bad as you seem to think it is.

@DevHC

then u don’t just find a few admins, but enough to cover all time frames with reasonable probability: the more statistically active the time frame, the more admins covering it is desired. fortunately, the more the time frame is active, the greater the selection of players, and thus, in general, candidates for admins.

Some players don’t want to be admin, and sometimes there aren’t any appropriate candidates in any given timezone. Having said that, there aren’t that many times when there are no admins on whatsoever.

@DevHC

i feel it’s more like 25% when there is an admin to revert. this includes cases where a full revert is not possible due to buildable bounding box imprecision (by the old, crappy code), and cases where partial damage is not reverted or some damage is suffered during the downtime, allowing the „fair” destruction of many weakened buildables; this already is „beyond repair”, but in most cases, even a loss follows.

What do you suggest?

---

@DevHC

for godfuck’s sake, concentrate on the proper use of punctuation, not the capitalization of sentences. i have no fucking idea1 what u just said, but let me say this:

Off-topic but your lack of capitalisation is disgusting to read, too.

[Hendrich]

@DevHC

ever since Tremulous basically existed

Fixed.

@DevHC

there have been recurrent, daily-multiple gameplay disruptions, including malicious teamkilling, (game-ending) deconning, feeding, voting, harassment, spamming, cheating, other violation of rules, and alike

Should these disruptions be avoided as much as possible? Yes. The claims you are making are quite bad and hopefully are supported by evidence and player reports. I do believe there should be a reasonable expectation of GP staff accepting the responsibility to make GrangerPub “un-disruptive” as possible.

So far, I’ve seen GP staff addressing player reports and issues adequately thus far on the forums, but I’m not aware of the severity of these issues in-server. Perhaps you do have legitimate grievances that should be taken into consideration, rather than ignored.

However.

These are issues not unique to GrangerPub, remember this before busting the nuts of people who do it FOR FREE™.

@DevHC

starting 2016-05-30, i’ll be collecting, for just the record, all game disruptions encountered and recognized by me.

This is acceptable.

@DevHC

the purpose of this is, through the exposure of facts, humiliation of the GrangerHub staff

Lets make it clear. GrangerPub staff =/= GrangerHub staff. I still understand the point you’re trying to make.

@DevHC

and thus provoking it to start providing solutions. as such, details like the date/time, the map, etc. will not be noted in general.

This is also acceptable. I see no issue having players spend their free time making sure that GrangerPub staff are doing their jobs. In fact in my PERSONAL OPINION, I think this should be encouraged as long as players do it reasonably, respectfully and provide evidence to back up these claims. But, it is ultimately it is up to the administrators to decide if “issues” are worth acting on, not third parties.

DevHC, you are probably aware of this, but I will make the point anyways for everyone else to see.

GrangerPub staff are not robots, they will not always be able to solve disruptions caused by DICKBUTTS 100% perfectly in a niche community playing an open-source standalone 2006 ioquake3 mod of an shitty Quakeworld clone from the asshole of 1999. Human administration can only go so far when we have a game thats still relying on Quake Virtual Machines in 2016. Admins will fuck up. Trolls will get away with shit. GrangerPub is unique in that it tries to let players be assholes to a certain extent without being hit by the ban hammer.

Ultimately, for now, the best solution is to keep games running smoothly on average and for players to follow the rules, proactively use GrangerPub features such as /ignore and most of all, keep the game fun.

[burrito]

This thread should be flagged just to fit in lol

I don’t know how this thread is important at all. Seems more like a rant to be honest. (no pun intended) It’s just DevHC trying to tutor GrangerHub admins for not doing anything at all. I kind of agree, but I can’t do anything considering level 3 has absolutely no cmds for anti-griefing.

[Hendrich]

Thread moved to GrangerPub Servers since it seems to be addressing GP specifically.

Its important to note that logs should be submitted under Reports and are subject to the rules of reporting.

[MaeJong]

@DevHC

right now, Desala, known now as brandon, is on the server, as acknowledged by a poll vote. despite this, a kick vote failed. in response, brandon called a mute vote against /dev/humancontroller, though failed. now, brandon called a bullshit kickvote against /dev/humancontroller, and the server population followed.

Was present, but was FREEZING™ due to third-world craptop post loading, so I lifted the kick as soon as I could and took care of Desala (for now - subnetted at the end of a 45 mins game, he was beneficial to the human team.).)

I forgot to give you level 2 earlier. I’ll grant you vote immunity as soon as I see you on the server or remember your registered name.

In the future, as a player, when trying to deal with Desala when he hasn’t done anything, I recommend PMing an admin with (ideally) ban (L5+) to take care of him. That’ll avoid unnecessary backfiring votes, or decon.

[DevHC]

@MaeJong

subnetted at the end of a 45 mins game, he was beneficial to the human team

what kind of a retardlogic is that ?

u rekick an already-banned player immediately upon noticing. if that means that the human team will feel lost afterwards, then that’s the abuse-doing of the said player — increase the ban based on the significance of this situation.

[MaeJong]

I’m sorry for not fucking yet another game with 10+ people on the human team up just because someone was being a faggot and deserved to be banned.