Due to the fact that I have never seen you scrim let alone play the game before, I have no openness to any of your suggestions. You OBVIOUSLY don’t know how the game works if you’re making shitty statements like this.
bird, with all due respect, you may have a valid point (devhc’s presence, ignoring the possibility of him using aliases), but thats not a very convincing argument to the rest of the points DevHC has made, specifically:
i’m sure with your experience, you can easily explain how this logic is flawed in an actual match, no?
bird, my problem with this statement is that devhc actually backed his insult up. thats why i am more inclined to agree with him than you, which i think might be a problem relevant to you if more people are willing to listen to devhc (in your mind, inexperienced) and not to you (in your mind, an experienced player)
also if you are wondering, yes, i’m attempting to make you reconsider responding to him because i am genuinely interested in how the game works from your perspective
I’m not sure I understood what you mean by humans r required to be vigiliant to force a response from the aliens, but, S3 aliens with timed evoes can just get rants and adv. goons and so you don’t actually ‘‘force a response from the aliens’’, but (in a scrim more notably), you spread your buttcheeks wide and beg for the tyrants to use lube.
In S1, dretches either retkill themselves or camp corners.
DevHC’s statement seems otherwise mostly correct:
This is true: You can sit as nakeds behind 7 rets all day if the enemy team only has dretches. Not a surprise.
This is a very map-dependant situation: Try sniping aliens out of niveus’ window room or karith’s narrow staircase.
Considering both teams have 3 players filling the conditions for timed, after first timed income:
Aliens get 3 evoes, so a goon.
175*3 = 525 credits (or, 2 shotties with larmour, and a rifle with larmour for a total of 510 creds spent)
It could be an interesting option, and this statement is also true. On the other hand, if the team with the upper hand in evo count doesn’t attack, the other team is allowed an easy comeback. And this is when it may turn into a massive rant-vs-suit stalemate.
The alternative is the current situation, where the first few minutes are aliens just hiding from humans until they have the evos for Dragoons. Once aliens get Dragoons, they should never lose any scrim unless they play badly. However, I do think that this combination of rules suggested in the other thread would result in humans being able to just camp until SD and not let aliens ever get S2 for ceiling eggs. Just in general, I feel like the idea of changing the time credits/evos off needs to be tested at some point in scrims; it hasn’t been tested enough to see what effects it would have on the game.
congratulations, u’ve successfully forgotten the context of the referenced statements.
to refresh:
this implicitly speaks about the early-game situation of stage-1 teams, near-initial (default) bases and few funds, where „4 goons” is a force to reckon with. if humans don’t kill aliens, then they will likely see this crushing force.
to aid the latter, aliens could try to avoid contact with the humans. however, in this case, the practically unattended alien base is vulnerable to sniping by the humans. thus, if the humans start sniping — they can do so (in the very early-game) —, aliens would eventually run out of time, and need to resopnd sooner or later.
of course the humans should also be vigilant to prevent any good initial base moves by the aliens, and vice versa.
ind33d, i was primarily analyzing default layouts on regularly played, exemplary maps, such as atcs,1 Niveus, Karith Station 2 and Transit. however, almost all gameplay aspects r very map-dependent.
1 ::fart::
and ?
for example, to troll ppl. the troll team’s real goal is not to acquire a „bragful” endgame outcome, but to get off on annoying others, for which camping — plus eg. watching movies in the background — is a perfect tool. even then, the trolls may lose the game, but they will have won the meta-game: they have the time of their life annoying the shit out of unadvized participants.
also, in various crappy, exploitable, proposed rules, a clan could employ a safe series-strategy („we’ve never lost !”) of only trying to win 2 matches if the clan plays aliens first, so if the first match fails, then to force a draw (as humans) in the 2nd match.
in a properly designed game, it should not be possible to bring such desires to effect.
congratulations, u’ve successfully lost track of the train of thought. u get a Z in reading comprehension. but since u’re just a mere mortal, it’s kind of expected that u can’t connect 2 consecutive sentences.
rephrasing for the absolutely retarded:
- the game began 30 seconds ago.
- humans r poking the alien base.
- alien structures r being destroyed one-by-one.
under these conditions, we have:
- dretches have to find the right situations to strike.
- for aliens, showing themselves just before the 2 minute mark, is a rather bad idea (compared to eg. the 35 second mark and the 155 second mark.
- if close to the 2 minute mark, consider just waiting it out.
u, on the other hand, have no experience in analysis, let alone competence. (ROFL ! see what i did they when i swapped the „competence” and „comprehension” around „let alone” ?)
this NEXT™-GENERATION(R)_RETARDEDNESS(C) calls for the creation of a dedicated embarrassment thread.
I have been the turtle and I have been the aggressor in this exact situation you are talking about on ATCS. Either the humans kill all of the hazard tubes and leave, or they push in - in which the dretches (if they choose to attack) then have the advantage.
If the humans don’t want the aliens time evo’ing they have to kill all of the hazardous acid tubes to aid in their extermination of dretches and then walk in dangerously to try and kill them or the eggs. This usually doesn’t happen and more often than not the humans leave and the dretches are unscathed.
Sure, but avid scrimmers should know not to scrim trolls. And if this does happen, they won’t scrim them again. You presented your draw theory as if it would reoccur over and over. With this community, and with these clans, people won’t play for draws.
Do you mean this thread that you’ve used to embarrass yourself?
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WRONG. humans r not required to rush in like idiots.
WRONG.
that may be a fact. however, such things have no bearing to any game-theoretic analyses.
no, the one that Hendrich has already deleted.
u still have no fucking idea.
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@DevHC why you don’t create a clan, get 4-5 members and start to scrim? With your knowledge of this game you will lead em to many victories! But pls the first clan war scrim against us because I want to see how pro you are.
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2 shotties and a rifle should be able to take care of a goon and 2 dretches. In fact, the matchup is pretty tightly balanced - the problem is, when aliens camp for evoes until they have all 3 goons (~6 mins), and humans can’t just get inside of their base (given they built some tubes and shit) if the aliens are all in there without risking getting completely annihilated/assraped. If aliens always showed themselves around the 2 minutes mark, no one would have a problem with timed evoes as they are. The other problem is when you sit a tyrant in your base and wait for timed income for your entire team.
I was with you until this post.
With that logic, game-theoretic analyses has no bearing to facts. I think your exemplified issue of “troll” clans shouldn’t be an issue that needs to be addressed by a contingency plan because that bullshit is going to be caught out and dealt with by other clans relatively quickly. This also assumes that the “troll” clan is skilled enough to keep their camping advantage and win (force a draw).
Skill has no bearing to any game-theoretic analyses.
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[quote=“Hendrich, post:15, topic:2311, full:true”]
I was with you until this post.
With that logic, game-theoretic analyses has no bearing to facts. [/quote]
Not all facts have bearing to any specific kind of analysis, that doesn’t mean that all facts don’t have bearing to a given kind of analysis. Consider what DevHC was originally commenting on:
Also consider that this topic is about the strategies for 1.1 gameplay not limiting to the size/number, state, nor specifics of the Tremulous community/clans today.
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Then he should start a topic saying “from my point of wiev” or “my opionion”, not “you don’t understand nothing of this game” because every skilled player know “something” of this game. And Bird is one of them.
If he starts with a sentence like that he must also proves that in fact he is the number 1. And we already know that he is not. My challenge is always open: create a clan and start to challenge us.
But if he loses, he will prove that all those “game-theoretic analyses” worth as much as the director of porn videos.
You can always analyses a match, but skill is the first factor that every clan should have. And skilled players want to play skilled matches, demonstrating through a victory to be stronger than the opposite clan.
And, if a clan wins with hard win conditions (those new rules), it will proves that.
yes, and ?
a rifle can destroy buildables faster than a granger can construct them.
except if something gay happens, namely, speedbuilding — something i hadn’t taken directly into consideration. fortunately, under 1.1 gamelogic, it only takes 1 (rifle) shot at a granger to ensure 175cr of income when the granger dies.
but the possibility of speedbuilding with no loss of evos is a candidate for alterations.
yes, but why would aliens be forced to do that ?
also, why can’t ppl settle for the following: „if, during S1, the aliens have to eventually show themselves, with this situation recurring many times, then ppl have no PROBLEMs with automatic income.” ? (i argue that the premise is true.)
well-said. (it was getting kind of annoying for me to have to explain that.)
why is it always the brawny birdbrains (ie. u) — who know how to move and shoot/bite, but not how to study strategies — who think that any analysis, that seems to defy their existing understanding of the gameplay practices, is bullshit until proven otherwise — regardless of its structure of reasoning under the analyses ?
i’m like a nutrition-scientist explaining that a special non-meat diet in the long run could produce a uniquely beneficial muscle-fibre structure — because that’s how protein folds, because enzymes under these concentrations yield this-and-that; did i mention a „because” ? —, and u’re like a long-time bodybuilder with a steroid-shrunk peanut-brain who says he knows „something”, namely, that „meat = muscle_mass ∧ muscle_mass = powar”, and that i must first prove myself by personally outlifting him.
yes, the truth is determined by the outcome of 1 series.1
1 NOT
or i could say: the challenge is on ! as S00N™ as i acquire ppl who have significant agility-related skills, r capable of strong analytics, and r willing and ready to put the high-level decomposition to the test, i’ll contact u.
both sentence parts r correct, but have no relation to eachother. also, let’s not confuse the 1st part with what is presented in this thread.
a good question is: which of the following execution skills r most important: combat, tactics, strategy, crysis management, communication, etc; and also, how important r the following externalities: commitment to play, preparation for a match, freshness of practice, repertoire of exclusively-known TOP™_SECRET(R)_METHODOLOGY™s, etc ?
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I saw and played many clan wars: I never saw an unskilled clan win against a skilled clan only with the tactic (so I never saw an unskilled clan win -if you call Reac Jump tactic then yes, until we forbidden it). If you saw something different, please tell me. Where I found the triumph of the tactic was during ENTL, but, again, all final games where played by skilled teams: tactic, at this point, was essential.
Combat over all. You can be the best tactical team, but if a goon come alone and kill 3 guys your tactic is useless.[quote=“DevHC, post:18, topic:2311”]
both sentence parts r correct, but have no relation to eachother. also, let’s not confuse the 1st part with what is presented in this thread.
[/quote]
I know. Infact mine is 1st skill 2nd tactic = without skill tactic is useless (and then the rest of my post)
I could say: you know nothing of clan wars, you can’t give advice, this discussion is only for clans and players that play scrims, go talk about things that nobody cares and let us decide. If we need your help we’ll let you know¹!
¹:joy:
Interesting¹.
¹ NOT
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that implies legitimate authority, the problem with you is that your ideas need to be proven true which you have never done AFAIK and unfortunately, you’re not exactly the kind of person you think you are (atleast to the community) making your analysis difficult to accept
blizz (fix’d) does have legitimate authority who can demonstrate his ideas, the problem with him is that it doesn’t necessarily mean everything he says is true or what he says is actually the best possible analysis, making his analysis potentially flawed
It seems to me that this discussion in it’s current state, is not acting in the best interest of either party or the community.
Why don’t you two put your differences aside and work together to see if either of your theories are true in a real-word scenario? Wouldn’t that be more productive than slinging [OPINIONS] around and hoping they stick?
inb4 one is acting as a roadblock for the other
Then for the benefit of the community and to demonstrate objective evidence, can we all agree to put a plan into action and work together? Because I am interested in working for both of you to reach a mutual goal.
The only problem with the way he expresses his idea is his grammar, as seen with this: (no offense intended, but I didn’t catch a word)
Blizz has more experience than 95% of the current active playerbase as far as raw skill and scrim/game experience go.
Edit: after working my brains out I think you meant the peak of tactical gameplay in scrims was during ENTL, and ‘‘all final games’’ (not sure what you mean) were played by only (highly¹) skilled teams where the only difference that could be made was via tactics and strategy.
¹² most likely far above anything that can be witnessed these days
² copycat
Skills (combat) (!= top teaming on pub, yes no shit) >= communication == tactics >= crisis management.
Methodology, and preparation are also dependant on the freshness of practice, hence methodology == preparation == freshness of practice.
Applying tactics properly is a part of a player’s (combat) skills indirectly, their ability of raping ass becoming dependant on tactics themselves in high-end gameplay.
Without proper communication, you can’t manage anything in scrims against better clans, let alone situations of crisis.
I’m sorry for that. My problem is that I use Italian grammar-logic while I write in English. (ex. Giochi finali → Fasi finali → di cosa? ENTL - European National Tremulous League)
Anyway final games are semifinals and finals (maybe should be final fases of the tournament).
@Hendrich: like I wrote to him on PM (because we already had a great debate) I have nothing against him. My problem is only how he puts hisself to others.[quote=“Hendrich, post:20, topic:2311”]
Then for the benefit of the community and to demonstrate objective evidence, can we all agree to put a plan into action and work together?
[/quote]
Sure!
Not calling you out on it, your english level is more than acceptable overall. (Just requires flipping our brains more than usual to decipher some things)
Just me being a N1GG3R there.