Discussion about GrangerPub's Server Rotation

I see bird’s atcs votes fail plenty of times. But ofcourse when you spam any vote enough (with bird it is pretty much every match) it will pass more often, especially with slacker’s crappy voting system.

It needs to be a map good for smaller numbers of players with 1.1 vanilla game play, that is well balanced, and that is probably arena type. That is about all the similarity to atcs such a map should be, and it definitely needs to not be atcs nore atcs based.

I’ve said it before in different places but I’ll say it here again - the rotation needs some major fixes. Many maps on it are horrible given the amount of people playing and it needs to be much more simple, with smaller maps making up the majority of the rotation. The fact that ATCS votes continue to pass, even with 20+ players, shows that people actually want to play it; you shouldn’t let your personal dislike of ATCS get in the way, Sparky.


ATCS is disgusting. People only want to play it because;

  1. They fucking suck - ATCS lowers the skill cap of the game immensely, players who have greater creativity and adaptability will shine on GOOD custom maps.
  • They dislike the custom maps in the rotation. - So many cancer maps, we need to REPLACE maps not REMOVE them.

  • Downloading and or playing the custom maps is a problem for them- Get a new PC you fucking peasants.

Not voting until we get a good replacement, I refuse to higher the saturation of ATCS maps by straight up removing another map.


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Why people want to play it is irrelevant. As a server we should be catering to what the population wants, not what some admins think the population wants.

It’s completely relevant. What the votes have shown is that they would rather play ATCS than many other maps. Not that they love ATCS so much they never ever want to possibly try another custom map again.

I used to order the same shit from McDonald’s all the time until I was introduced to Big Mac’s. Doesn’t mean I fucking loved the previous meal, I just didn’t know that there were better options.

Just noticed there is no option to vote no on this poll.

Nobody’s claiming that. This is just the rotation - the other maps will still be on the server, and they can still be voted for with /callvote map. At the moment, though, people would rather play ATCS than most of the custom maps in the rotation, even with the horrible 45 seconds wait before you can change the map.

Good god shuffle don’t get me started.

@Ckit You’ve made some good points but the fact is we must cater the server to its players. If the people want bread, you give them bread, not fucking gluten free barley loaves.

The issue of replacing Thanatos is an issue of reworking the rotation.

I will happily contribute to any thread pertaining to reforms of the rotation, but this thread is just about the removal of one map in particular.

No one is saying remove thanatos from the server. If the players want to call a vote for the map and it passes, those who support my petition and I will not say a word. All we want is Thanatos removed from the rotation.

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Despite the impression that some people give refering to their interpretation of the results of a fundamentally flawed and broken map selection system, the majority of the playerbase does not want to play atcs more often, and I doubt they want to even play it this often. Even with this fundamentally flawed and broken map selection system, atcs votes do fail often, even to non-default maps (vote results conveniently ignored by the proponents of the claim that most players prefer to play atcs over all other existing maps as often as possible). I should also mention that often thanotos is not vote changed, but played through, at least the times I’ve played it.

To get proper data that very accurately reflects what map selection the playerbase prefers the most, the map selection process needs to be properly fixed (to be completed very very very S00N™). However, I can point to solid data at this very moment that shows that atcs is played a small minority amount of the time (not small enough in my opinion). Gametracker has a graph that shows what percentage of the time on a server for the previous 7 days various maps are played (not how often they appear as having a rotation would skew that data, but what percentage of the total time for that 7 day period a map is played).


As of the time I make this post, according to gametracker ATCS and ATCShd combined has been played a total of 23% of the amount of time over the previous 7 days.

I agree with that statement, and more admins should consider if they are really walking that walk, and not just talking that talk.

I agree

Their computers are not the problem for downloading maps, it is their old client, and changes to the server already made downloading custom maps more practical for those old client than every before, but a new client (to be available very very very very S00N™ will make downloading any map a complete non-issue.

I agree. When I first played Thanatos, it was easy to get lost since navigation is not as obvious as other maps. But now I’m getting familiar with the layout, and I don’t really see the problem with it, so a better case is going to have to be made for its removal. But whether Thanatos is removed or not, it would be good to have an extra non-atcs map or two that is of good quality and satisfies that rotation range.

Before I begin, it has come to my attention that this thread is no longer about removing Thanatos from the server rotation. As a GH moderator I feel it would be appropriate to move all irrelevant discussion to it’s own thread after I have submitted this post. Feel free to contact me if you disagree.

ATCS is one of the few good symmetrical maps thats easy enough for noobs to understand and start co-ordinating rushes together. Yes I think ATCS is a “good” map despite it’s problems, because I don’t let my disenfranchisement of 24/7 ATCS servers mislead me from understanding why ATCS saw so much success in the 1.1 scene. It has a decent mix of open and closed areas, interesting areas worth moving RC/OMs into, has good wall/ceiling design to complement high-skill alien movement but enough vertical platforms for human defenses to take advantage of.

Basically, ATCS was designed for Tremulous 1.1. ATCS was designed to show off the basics of player/structure engagement and allow better players to flex the capabilities of Tremulous as a unique multiplayer videogame. ATCS is to Tremulous like De-Dust2 is to Counterstrike.

THE PROBLEM is that ATCS has legitimate issues that was never addressed by an official update. Every variant of ATCS I’ve seen doesn’t try to “balance” it but rather “update” with new or different ideas without understanding why ATCS exists in the first place.

Let me try to help anyone reading understanding what I’m talking about. Have you ever wondered why ATCS happened to have a fuck-huge skybox outside of the default bases? Its not just there for show, as it allows aliens like Dragoons to take advantage of it’s verticality and humans to consider the jetpack as a serious upgrade. However this only led to jet-camping and dragoons pouncing away from danger without risk.

Now as we all know, ATCS is going to be significantly shittier under Tremulous 1.3 since the map wasn’t designed to accommodate the new changes. I also agree with Sparky that the current logic for rotating maps needs to be overhauled on the development-side. Games like Halo 3 did a much better job at giving people a system to occasionally play the maps they want and occasionally choose from new maps to play.

I disagree with Ckit that ATCS is the problem. ATCS is not the problem. ATCS is the symptom of a bigger problem: Tremulous needs a fucking update.

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There is a 45 second delay for map votes. Remove the delay and you will see how often Thanatos gets map vote changed.

Oh yeah, it is very easy to pass a vote very quickly before everyone has a chance to join.

Which almost never happened. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a mapvote pass before 99% of people had connected. Pretty much every single person on the server dislikes the 45 second delay for mapvotes. It’s dumb.

i agree with your two other points but not with this one. most newbies are using the default client. it has speed limit on downloading new maps. sometimes downloads are disabled at all. it’s a huge barrier for them playing new maps. after switching maps the server often empties

we need some way to quickly teach them how to install new client. i still don’t know how to easily install it. my last installation of tremfusion on newest ubuntu 14.04 was a PINA. new PC won’t help

agree. it’s such a waste of of time

I have seen plenty occasions when that has occurred.

GrangerPub, GrangerClub, and test7341 have downloading enabled for the 1.1 stock client from Tremulous.net, and the download rate for those clients ranges from 25 kb/s when a huge amount of players download at once, up to 200 kb/s, so much faster than the 3 kb/s on every other server. Those modifications are among the reasons we can have servers with non-default maps available to all Tremulous clients. Of course a new client would be better.

Very very S00N™ we will be publicly testing the new installer/launcher/updater that will start with using blowFish’s client, and will upgrade to the new 1.3 client when we have the initial release.

This is true. Without a delay, people would not get invested in the game and would be glad to switch to a better map. When a game starts, you have nothing. If that changes, and you get a kill (you WON a fight), that’s a good feeling and you don’t want to suddenly have a reset and lose that. The delay results in people not wanting to change maps because they already started playing on it.

Anyone taking more than 30 seconds longer than me to load a map probably can’t play Tremulous on their computer in the first place. Connected players do affect the number of players necessary to pass a vote (since it will not auto-pass prior to completion unless it would pass even if every connected player who had not voted would vote no), so it will not pass until they get in. Your logic is foolish in this case.

Make a poll to ask who likes it. There will be 1 vote for liking it, and it will be Sparky.

Can you provide examples? TremStats game-logs where the map ended before people entered the game? I thought not.

You’ve said this about every single project GrangerHub has in the works, and so far, zero of them are complete. Very very S00N™ there won’t be a player base left for you to be “saving”. Oh wait, I almost forgot, there already isn’t.


WRONG. they can still easily play the role of a builder and team coordinator, or just spectate and chat.



it has happened plenty of times. there were (even a decade ago !) servers where a 30 second delay effectively prevented such attempts. the feature existed (for a decade !) for a reason.

a 45 second delay is GOOD™. a 15 second delay is GOOD™er, but that would prevent people with not so fast computers from calling votes early (though, at least, a 35 second load time would leave 10 seconds for a hasty but reasonably deliberated vote, provided that the vote doesn’t pass among the players that have already finished loading). the GOOD™est solution would be to prevent downloading, map loading, etc. from interfering with communication, administration, voting, etc…

so GH’s configuration of „45 seconds” is questionable.

WRONG. there was only a S00N™ (without the „very very” part), and it was for the „GrangerHub Tremulous project”.

WRONG. ever since GH, the player base (well, excluding myself) was just growing, and will continue so. (do not confuse GH’s player base with that of U***********.)