Discussion Regarding Server-side Demos (and it's relation to Tremulous)

[Ckit]

DISCUSSION TAKEN TO SLACK - MAEJONG IS A NIGGARD

[Hendrich]

tl;dr demos r pretty cool but resources r limited so release 1.3 first kthx ez pz gg no re

[Tony_X]

@Ckit

Download your replay from the End of Game Screen or Match History

doesn’t work for me for some reasons, I always get a “failed to download” error lol
but I don’t care about my replays anyways, I’m too good so I don’t need to improve XD

[DevHC]

@Ckit

@DevHC

@Ckit

Even massive game titles such as League of Legends have JUST got a feature like this.

that’s 1 game, and doesn’t say a lot.

It does when it’s the most played FPS in the world across all major platforms (PC/PS4/Xbone)

LoL is not FPS, and is PC&gayOS-only. WRONG.

@DevHC

@Ckit

[i hereby compare Tremulous with LoL:] Even massive game titles such as League of Legends have JUST got a feature like this.

@Ckit

StarCraft [original], BroodWar [expansion] and Starcraft II WoL, HotS, and LotV expansions [(all RTS)]

comparing these games with that of [Tremulous, ] a FPS isn’t great.

look who’s comparing that 1 game [(LoL)] to that of an FPS

It’s important to compare games of similar genres. I would not classify tremulous as an RTS.

then why did u compare Tremulous with LoL ?

It looks like you didn’t quite get the message so lets look at some more examples.

it looks like u didn’t quite get the message, so i will repeat it louder:

@DevHC

[b][u][i][color=yellow] crappy developers. [/color][/i][/u][/b]

@Ckit

[countless examples]

countless crappy developers.

you think that someone (me) with little coding experience should look to implement replays […]?

no, the „u have volunteered” comment that i gave is a general troll comment i like to throw around every now and then.

You also think that this should be priority for such a dead mess of a game?

it’s not the server-side demo feature in its own right that has priority (eg. for use in fact-checking), but rather a clean underlying game architecture design that would make server-side demos almost a free consequence. the clean design is not a priority, but if an instant hack is possible, or an implementation can be ported (eg. from TremFusion), then it should be done.

Define crappy developer[s].

in this case, those that don’t create academically acclaimed clean design.
PS: eg. u. xD

Their game has made them filthy rich and it’s enjoyed, played and watched by millions across the globe. Makes me question your intentions as a game developer.

yes, shrewd questioning. also, someone did X. that must make u question my intentions as an X-doer.¹

¹ NOT

to provide a game platform that people enjoy, […] to want to control the players in a game you develop.

both r true. however, how did u manage to deduce the latter one from the above ?

@DevHC

can actually be saved, but saving is artificially limited ? that’s fucktarded.

Yes, likely due to data constraints. You don’t live in the real world do you?

what part of

@DevHC

artificial

did u fail to not deliberately_ignore ?
also, what data constraints ? this 2004-era heap of junk here has 100s of GiBs of disk space.²

² if we took the pr0n out of the calculation.

@DevHC

at most marginally. ie., unless the admin is an ultra-n00b, it’s quicker to search all available logs for an obviously unique log line (typically some comment in chat), than to even post a question asking for a date; and even after that, u still have to find that log line.

Any report featuring an incident older than 90 days is null and void. I’d love the chance to omit one of your countless cockfuck reports due to not meeting this condition.

ROFL.

• u’re so ultra-n00b, that it would take u months to find a fucking log line ?
• i’ll be sure to drop a 90-day old report in ~90 days.
• yes, the report system is so shit that even admins would prefer to slack off instead of building justice.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Here is something constructive for this thread:

* Server-side demo recording (needs testing)

[Ckit]

@DevHC

LoL is not FPS, and is PC&gayOS-only. WRONG.

Talking about OW. CSGO would be the biggest FPS but that is PC only. LoL is the biggest online game on PC.

@DevHC

then why did u compare Tremulous with LoL ?

Yes, because you compared it with Sc2 and said the OW comparison wasn’t enough to go by. Tell me what games you think would make a fair comparison and I will look into them. Some of the games I mentioned are not in a similar situation in not only genre but their need for monitoring players. Some games have less griefing than what is possible on tremulous simply due to the gameplay and rule set. You aren’t going to find the perfect game to compare it to so I am comparing it to games people actually play because we want this to be a success.

@DevHC

in this case, those that don’t create academically acclaimed clean design.PS: eg. u. xD

Do not understand.

@DevHC

no, the „u have volunteered” comment that i gave is a general troll comment i like to throw around every now and then.

Would you like to do it?

@DevHC

it’s not the server-side demo feature in its own right that has priority (eg. for use in fact-checking), but rather a clean underlying game architecture design that would make server-side demos almost a free consequence. the clean design is not a priority, but if an instant hack is possible, or an implementation can be ported (eg. from TremFusion), then it should be done.

AGREED. See what happens when you clarify instead of troll?

@DevHC

both r true. however, how did u manage to deduce the latter one from the above ?

Not from above, but all your actions I have on record.

@DevHC

did u fail to not deliberately_ignore ?also, what data constraints ? this 2004-era heap of junk here has 100s of GiBs of disk space.2

2 if we took the pr0n out of the calculation.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT OW. It’s a 2016 title.

@DevHC

yes, the report system is so shit that even admins would prefer to slack off instead of building justice.

Correction. Your repots are so shit that I would prefer to slack off.
Report system is also shit.

[DevHC]

@Ckit

@DevHC

then why did u compare Tremulous with LoL ?

Yes, because you compared it with Sc2 and said the OW comparison wasn’t enough to go by.

WROOOOONG !!!1! again, in order of consequence:

1. u compare Tremulous with LoL.
2. i compare Tremulous with StarCraft.
3. u complain that SC/SC2 were only 2 games, and that they’re RTS.
4. i point out that LoL is only 1 game, and that it’s also RTS.

i did not complain about specifically the OW comparison.

Tell me what games you think would make a fair comparison and I will look into them.

fuck off with the comparisons. with this u’re only saying that „if there r so many crappy developers out there, then there’s no shame in us being crappy as well”, which is a fact, but is disappointing, hence i will voice „crappy developers” upon every opportunity.

@DevHC

academically acclaimed clean design

Do not understand.

clean design encompasses careful handling of game state and input, giving rise to full determinism/reproducibility, easily permitting operations such as lossless recording, rewinding and replaying (including saving and loading) of games, and permitting accurate predictability of events across the network. another consequence of such clean design is less bugs.

additional consequences:

• monitoring everything, deterring griefing
• low-bandwidth streaming of gameplay, also low archiving costs
  • though viewer-side rendering
• viewer-adjustable rendering (graphics packages) and focus on events
  • permitting in-depth analysis of gameplay
• delayed streaming of public but competitive matches (with the above benefits at the same time)

Some of the games I mentioned are not in a similar situation in not only genre but their need for monitoring players. Some games have less griefing than what is possible on tremulous simply due to the gameplay and rule set. You aren’t going to find the perfect game to compare it to so I am comparing it to games people actually play because we want this to be a success.

recording functionality is not primarily for monitoring players. clean design should pay off (due to much-lowered testing and maintenance costs) in the long run, and then implementing the said state-related additional functionalities is a must (relative priorities being practically irrelevant), because they r such a short step away from the mere careful handling of state and input, and come with immense benefits by comparison.

@DevHC

no, the „u have volunteered” comment that i gave is a general troll comment i like to throw around every now and then.

Would you like to do it?

would, but the DICKBUTT has pissed me off.

@DevHC

did u fail to not deliberately_ignore ?also, what data constraints ? this 2004-era heap of junk here has 100s of GiBs of disk space.2

2 if we took the pr0n out of the calculation.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT OW. It’s a 2016 title.

yes, exactly. now answer the question; for clarity, i will repeat and rephrase: what data constraints ? because data storage is only limited by the space available on storage media, and ppl nowadays have ~∞ space to store demos (or „plays”) on, making the „at most 3 plays per profile” a counter to a possibility of a good experience.

Your repots are so shit that I would prefer to slack off.

why ? each report clearly shows exactly the parts of the logs relevant to demonstrating the extent of the abuse.

Report system is also shit.

QFT

[Ckit]

@DevHC

fuck off with the comparisons. with this u’re only saying that „if there r so many crappy developers out there, then there’s no shame in us being crappy as well”, which is a fact, but is disappointing, hence i will voice „crappy developers” upon every opportunity.

We have the best developers don’t we folks?

@DevHC

clean design encompasses careful handling of game state and input, giving rise to full determinism/reproducibility, easily permitting operations such as lossless recording, rewinding and replaying (including saving and loading) of games, and permitting accurate predictability of events across the network.

Sounds wonderful. Good luck easily producing that in a game that was conceived before YouTube.

@DevHC

recording functionality is not primarily for monitoring players. clean design should pay off (due to much-lowered testing and maintenance costs) in the long run, and then implementing the said state-related additional functionalities is a must (relative priorities being practically irrelevant), because they r such a short step away from the mere careful handling of state and input, and come with immense benefits by comparison.

Agreed, that’s why I still referenced them.

@DevHC

would, but the DICKBUTT has pissed me off.

umad?

If you aren’t a “crappy developer” why are you so plagued by petty DICKBUTTS?

@DevHC

yes, exactly. now answer the question; for clarity, i will repeat and rephrase: what data constraints ? because data storage is only limited by the space available on storage media, and ppl nowadays have ~∞ space to store demos (or „plays”)

Tell me where I can get infinite or at least mass storage space for free.

@DevHC

why ? each report clearly shows exactly the parts of the logs relevant to demonstrating the extent of the abuse.

Most reports were finicky and lead to nothing more than a !warn. Although I thank you for taking the time regardless.

[DevHC]

@Ckit

Good luck easily producing [clean design] in a game that was conceived before YouTube.

how is YouTube relevant ? also, StarCraft was released before YouTube.

@DevHC

recording functionality is not primarily for monitoring players. clean design should pay off (due to much-lowered testing and maintenance costs) in the long run, and then implementing the said state-related additional functionalities is a must (relative priorities being practically irrelevant), because they r such a short step away from the mere careful handling of state and input, and come with immense benefits by comparison.

Agreed, that’s why I still referenced them.

who/what ? all those games without „clean design” ? so u mean to say that their developers don’t strive for the long run ?

If you aren’t a “crappy developer” why are you so plagued by petty DICKBUTTS?

the formal capabilities of a developer has no relation to whether he/she is plagued. unless u mean: „those who r plagued do not code, thus don’t create any design, thus don’t create clean design, and r thus crappy”. then let me correct the definition of „crappy developers”: those that create designs that r not academically acclaimed clean ones.

@DevHC

yes, exactly. now answer the question; for clarity, i will repeat and rephrase: what data constraints ? because data storage is only limited by the space available on storage media, and ppl nowadays have ~∞ space to store demos (or „plays”)

Tell me where I can get infinite or at least mass storage space for free.

anywhere; it’s cheap. answer the question !

Most reports were finicky and lead to nothing more than a !warn.

thus, there will be less of such sporadic abuse, because subsequent violations will result in more than a !warn.

[Ckit]

@DevHC

how is YouTube relevant ? also, StarCraft was released before YouTube.

Did the original starcraft have the clean controls you mention? Youtube video player is nice.

@DevHC

who/what ? all those games without „clean design” ?

Yes.

@DevHC

so u mean to say that their developers don’t strive for the long run ?

I’m sure some do. Other companies probably weigh it out based on profit.

@DevHC

the formal capabilities of a developer has no relation to whether he/she is plagued.

Yes it does. Your ability to remain unphased, calm, and focused are all skills that can be used to improve your work. This also isn’t exclusive to devloping.

@DevHC

„those who r plagued do not code, thus don’t create any design, thus don’t create clean design, and r thus crappy”.

Yes, this is what I am implying.

@DevHC

those that create designs that r not academically acclaimed clean ones.

Better than NO designs.

@DevHC

what data constraints ? because data storage is only limited by the space available on storage media, and ppl nowadays have ~∞ space to store demos (or „plays”)

@DevHC

answer the question !

My HDD is 970/1000 GB, SSD is 150/250. My storage media is limited. I am limited by my budget. Online storage has limitations and developers have budgets also. etc.

@DevHC

thus, there will be less of such sporadic abuse, because subsequent violations will result in more than a !warn.

CORRECT… assuming they connect under the same username. No IP was recorded because you did not attempt to contact an in-game admin to report/investigate these issues for you.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

It seems that a lot of the replies in this thread have veered off topic. For now I think it is best to temporarily close this topic, since we don’t have a version of server side demos implemented yet, the relevent concerns are hypothetical on something that doesn’t yet exist and thus can’t be verified by data at this time, we plan to implement server side demos, and we have what looks to be a relatively straightforward initial implementation (i.e. porting existing code).

This topic will be reopened after we have server side demos initially implemented on test7341 so that we can observe first hand the advantages/disadvantes, bugs, and limitations, and see where there can be improvements (or if the idea should be scrapped). Check back here S00N™.