Game design and theory - Introducting third class (team) inside Tremulous

Tremulous Evil Genius Think Tank
33

What would be the possible disadvantages to introduce rpg aspects in whole or in part to fps (Please go into constructive details on the potential issues, and try to avoid vague explanations like “not a good idea” or “bad idea” or “dumb”, etc)?

What would be the potential advantages t0 introduce rpg aspects in whole or in part to fps? How would it add to the fun? (Please go into details and try to avoid vague explanations like “because it would be fun” or “because it would be cool”, etc).

Of course we can’t fully know if such an approach of utilizing at least some rpg elements is overall a good or not so good idea without at least seeing it in action. Even then how something is implemented can greatly affect the quality. But still at this stage, before considering implementation, it can be beneficial to constructively consider the pros and cons.

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34

Wizards will not fit in well with a game based on alien and human combat. If it is turned into an RPG you are just making it like every other newer game out there, and it could no longer be considered Tremulous.

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35

RPG elements can still be utilized while keeping the science fiction theme, the game elements/mechanics should be considered on a theme independent way, for example, a game play aspect that might work in a fantasy type theme, might also work well with a scifi theme it just requires some creativity for the translation.

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36

I say it starts feeling like it isn’t Tremulous. Response I get is “This isn’t intentional.” (Along the road, continues to make it more “intentional” by completely changing the entire gameplay).

37

The initial design of Tremulous when it started as a quake 3 mod had very little resemblance to 1.1 vanillaish Tremulous. There have been many Tremulous mods since that pushed past the boundaries on what might have been considered “conventional Tremulous” (like Tremx/KoRx/related, X, W, F, H v H, Z, Arcade, instagib, rcz, Edge, cuboid, ambush, AMP, etc…). A lot of different people, with different tastes, have been attracted to Tremulous over the years, in part due to the richness in variation of Tremulous game play to choose from. The answer to the question of “What is Tremulous?” can vary according to different Trem players.

For me, the aspects that attracted me to Tremulous mainly include the following:

  • social aspect

  • strategy

  • group problem solving

  • scifi theme

  • manipulation of the environment

  • experimentation (with the mod scene)

  • action

Having new game play to choose from doesn’t take away from older game play options. The main thing is that any new game play is fun.

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38

Every severe change should be made a MOD first, then decided if it should be added to the main gameplay.

39

With a game mode system, the “main” game play doesn’t have to be restricted to a single type, making the stakes of making significantly different new things available as options less severe. Different servers can choose what kind of game play they want to make available, and different servers can serve different purposes.

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41

Well first off. I never said it shouldn’t be done. I said it’s not advised for a fps genre or as I stated it “Not a good idea to introduce rpg to a fps”

Not once in my entire life have I’ve ever seen a first person shooter rpg where wizards have chainguns and wands and cast magical fire spells. I still don’t want to see it.

Why not introduce rpg to a fps? Because it’s already a FPS adding the role playing game mechanic in a game that does not roleplay and rely heavily on tactical force and etc use of rushing, base building and etc.
Adding something like a level base system, magical spells, normal rpg stuff would be one to much for a fps/rpg. If there was an idea that uses the bases of leveling up, maybe some magical spells, and keeping some sort of rush tactic would be a tower defense game. It is more suited for trem only because it has a majority of the key factor your normal fps game would have. Not to mention we already have defensive maps that you possibly “could” classify as tower defense(esk).

In my personal opinion it would flat line faster then anything i’ve ever seen because trying to put two things that aren’t meant to be together, together.

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42

Even though a lot of popular rpg games might have things like wizards and magic, that doesn’t mean they are inherent to all rpg.

Tremulous has been commonly described as fps with elements of rts. I was just reading over an article about rpg, and it looks like trem already shares some common aspects. Trem has a form of an internal economy system, there is handling of inventory, evolving with aliens is sorta like leveling up (although more short term, only for your current life which is pretty short in trem generally).

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43

That is why I wrote topic here and ask for opinions.

For the RPG part, well I don’t have any problem with that. but I wrote that reply as a joke :slight_smile:

Tremulous have some elements of the RPG already, like level system for the aliens.
But please don’t think about RPG at this moment.
Focus on the 3rd class (team).

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44

Any newly introduced changes might initially change the feel of the (still in development) game, but I assure you that we still want the final game play to feel like “Tremulous”, but NOT the “same Tremulous” (same as 1.1). Some functionality might not make it into Swirl mode- but will be implemented nonetheless as options available for mods. The action, pacing, alien classes, gun play and teamwork should ultimately feel like more Tremulous - when we re-tune things and make some cuts.

Our intentions (as long-time Tremulous players) isn’t to alienate the existing player base, but instead make the game nicer to play for ALL people, including the possibility of attracting new players- which 1.1 has had the chance to do; and has failed to capitalize on, for a decade. Also, because the plan is to have multi-mode servers, there will be nothing to stop anyone from running a near clone of 1.1’s play (“vanilla mode”).

Argument against rpg is that you aren’t playing a role- other than a ruthless killer who can slaughter the enemy team in under 3 mins. Games are supposed to be able to be won in a short time (assuming vast skill difference), so there’s no time/reason to enhance the “role” with RPG-like stats. It would be bad to change any stats/player attributes that would influence play, or at least it’d be bullshit in a pure-test-of-skill like competitive scrims.

“Karma system” and “player tier” are the droids you are looking for. Also, achievements & badges will enhance/upgrade the sense of accomplishment any player has- with no impact on play (assuming none of the achievements depend on a particular in-game action or behavior, performed to get the achievement - at the detriment of the match)

Sorry for the off-topicness of this post. Just wanted to clarify what it is we’re doing.

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45

3 posts were split to a new topic: Retaining New Players

46

True, if game is already at the market.
You know how this is working, all big AAA game developers publish SDK for their gameplay, then mod developers update/fix mistakes and problems there.
If there it is community project like this one, then developers talk with the community, see what are pros/cons aspects of the idea, and then accept or discard.

Of course like in all gaming communities there are some poison people who will trash idea just because they don’t like it.

That is the point of the “g_gametype” what “Q3”/“WolfET” have. You give companies/clients dedicated server with initial settings (the default one) (and of course, with proper documentation for all console variables what client can change) and it is up to the client how “he/she” will configure server.

Different approach to all this what I have in mind is not (well it could), is to give binary dedicated servers to the real hosting companies and to offer them any support.
EDIT: Home servers sucks (they are good only for the LAN games). Only upload speed and location where server is located is what is important.

I still have no idea why you guys are debating and discussing about “RPG” elements here. Mystery! :slight_smile:
I wrote that reply as a joke. It can be done, but personally and that is only my opinion is that it would ruin the game.

And now after 8 days after debating, where are we with 3rd class?
Pros/cons?
Yes/no?

simple as that :slight_smile:

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47

I know it will ruin the game I said so myself lol

48

We can create this as a gametype console variable, so it default be enabled, and anyone else who don’t like it can easy change it to the default :slight_smile:
what you think about that?

50

OK, read again, and read carefully my post and tell me what you think about the 3rd team. :slight_smile:

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51

To further clarify, the third team concept doesn’t have to have anything to do with introducing new rpg elements, rpg was a side discussion.

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53

I respect your opinion.

And again, I never said that it will be combination of RPG and FPS. Again you are mixing things. I again think and I strongly believe that you are don’t understand what I ask.
To end debate against us, I never said that it will be combination of RPG and FPS. How you mixed this, it is weird. Even when I wrote to you that I still have no idea how you guys are discussing RPG elements here.
And even after I wrote that you again mixed and added in the combination RPG.
Weird.

But thank you for your kind input and I appreciate your reply :slight_smile:

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55

Again you didn’t read my full reply. I wrote console variable (cvar) where you can change and turn that on/off.
Please next time read carefully and think before you write reply.

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56

In regards to implementation for initial testing, I think the first step would be for me to finish up the game mode system, and have that system allow for adding additional teams and configuring them via attributes, and further add classes/weapons/upgrades/buildables.

After that, I think among the quickest simplest ways to get a third team working in-game with minimal new asset requirements, just to get an idea on how the general idea works out, and the general issues we might have to address after seeing it in action, is to implement RCZ’s robot team. It uses the same human player model, but has a distinguishable skin.

We could then try a team that is based at least in part on the original “droids” team (the predecessor to the alien team we are more familiar with) from when Trem started as a Quake III mod. We could use existing alien models but with new skins, as place holders.

After that we may have a better idea on what to do for a third team, maybe sticking with the “droids” and/or “robots” as at least options, and/or going in a different direction with a completely different team, but in any case after we settle on the overall aspects of this third team, we would need someone to make new player models for this new team. I have virtually no experience in making models for games, however, as I understand it, making organic player models from scratch are among the most involved kind of models to make. We would also need new assets for any buildables (if this team has buildables), weapons, upgrades, etc where applicable.

I am interested in seeing sooner or later a game mode that is a port of the 1.1 zombie mod, and we could try with that tacking the zombies on as a third team (just to see how it plays). Another thing to consider, a third team doesn’t have to be a “proper third team”, for example we could just keep the current human and alien teams, and make it so that the ungibbed corpses of both teams can become zombie versions of the killed class, controlled only by bots, and would attack both living humans and living aliens indiscriminately.

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