Ok guys, I got a first version of the scrim teams done. I’ll wait for its approval before posting it here, but I will keep you updated on its status.
Anyway.
Would you guys be ok with a Best Of 3 or a Best Of 5.
I thought of that because it would make each time zone being able to play. (Or may be able to play.)
What is a best of 3/5/7/etc:
A best of 3/5/7/etc consist of a battle between 2 team. The first one that have the advantage on the other team wins. Which means if Team 1 wins 2 game out of 3, they win. But if both teams are at 1|1 it continues. until one team reaches 2|1.
Works the same with all the other values.
Change the 3 with the max games they will be playing.
You cannot do Best of 3 or Best of 5 in Tremulous. That doesn’t work. Humans and aliens are not fair. For example, if you did aliens twice and they did humans once, you’re going to win because aliens have the advantage on atcs. In Fk’s scrims on ATCS, I think at least 80% of our game losses are while the enemy was aliens and we were humans, and that’s not because we’re bad at humans. Aliens have inherent advantages over humans on almost all maps. You have to do Best of 2s until a team wins both times. I recommend, since you are clearly new to anything involving competitive Tremulous, that you look at the previous tournaments that have been run, such as the Tremulous Summer Olympics '11 in GPP or the Unvanquished tournament in 2013 (you can see the final bracket here; it follwed the same rules as the Tremulous Summer Olympics '11). In a game where the two sides are inherently imbalanced (unlike in games like TF2 on symmetric maps), you can never have an odd number of games determine the winner, because someone will get shafted by which side they play twice.
What I meant is that I’d make it as “rounds” incase of actual games. When both teams are balanced, both races have the same chances.
The best of three was only an idea, but what I thought earlier is to make it like Counter-Strike:Global Offensive tournaments. It has rounds and the one that reaches X round wins. Like on 30 rounds the one that reaches 16 wins. (I wouldn’t make it 16, I’d only make it like 3 incase of 16. Or maybe 6, so a Draw can happen.)
This is INCREDIBLY untrue. It is impossible to perfectly balance any game where the two sides are not exactly the same, and Tremulous is most definitely not fair. For example, GPP was most definitely not a balanced game, with aliens winning more than 56% of all games during the final phase that finished before development ceased. Tremulous 1.1 has always had aliens with the stage 1 advantage, humans with the stage 2 advantage, and aliens with the stage 3 advantage, so in a normal game humans will never reach stage 2 and will definitely not win if aliens reach stage 3.
How stupid would you have to be to choose an untested, imbalanced mod of an already imbalanced game over the version that was extensively playtested and is at least somewhat close to balanced when not played at a high level? Also, are you claiming that GHub will even be done balancing, playtesting, and ensuring the playability of 1.3 by March (mentioned elsewhere as a likely starting time for this event)? I’d rather cut my ballsack with a dozen rusty razor blades that were previously used by gay monkeys with herpes than play a tournament on 1.3 without seeing the tremulous.h file and having the exact data for the changes in front of me.
Also, I meant to mention this earlier, but if you want to make it like CS:GO, then what you should do is exactly what I said: best of 2s until someone wins both. In CS:GO, if a game goes 15-15, you do 6 rounds of overtime, 3 on each side. If it goes 18-18 after that, you go until someone hits 22. If it goes 21-21, you go until someone hits 25. There is never an odd number of rounds as the maximum number. You don’t just say “you’re shit out of luck, you have to play on Terrorists for the tiebreaker - ON NUKE”. In a competitive environment, you have to be completely fair to every single player and team, or you are not upholding the integrity of the game or the tournament.
In cs:go when they get a draw, they only make additional rounds so they see which team is the winner.
I know there’s not a maximum number of rounds. But we’re on Tremulous. Tremulous don’t have teams like NIP Fnatic and suchs. We can’t expect some 2 hours long games. The maximum we’ll see is some 30 min games. Which on a best of three or five, would end with a clear way to determine which team won.
I do get what you mean. But we kinda need to improvise on that for tremulous. Because of the number of players, the registrations and suchs.
Best of 2 could be good and not at the same time. Because what we need to do is eliminate the “luck” factor. So the only thing that stays is the skills of the players. Not the unbalancing or the luck.
The game should be balanced when the olympics happened. So the only factor we need to eliminate is the “Luck” one. And with a best of 3 or 4, we could easily do that.
It’s not official yet. I just gave that as an Idea. We will decide (me and the other organizers how it will be done.) But I will try to keep you guys updated on the olympics progression.
Thanks for bringing your point of view tho, I will definetly make sure to invest it and take the best of it to make the best olympics we can.
avarthar with all due respect, you’ve not disproven any single point menace has made. Letting one team play aliens twice in a best of 3 is the opposite of fair. I actually think that if you asked people to pay money to compete in the event and had this system in place, you could get sued for it. [quote=“avarthar, post:70, topic:1276”]
Best of 2 could be good and not at the same time. Because what we need to do is eliminate the “luck” factor. So the only thing that stays is the skills of the players. Not the unbalancing or the luck.
[/quote]
Where did anyone ever say that a best of 2 is a good system? We don’t want to play on just one map. We want multiple ones. Example: You make a map pool like CS:GO (default maps + utcs maybe?), each team gets to ban one map. Then both teams pick a map and the third one is decided from the remaining maps by dice (no native speakers, idk how to say this otherwise, fuck me) The luck factor is gone with this system as you just keep playing until one team has a full map won (2 rounds) [quote=“avarthar, post:70, topic:1276”]
The maximum we’ll see is some 30 min games. Which on a best of three or five, would end with a clear way to determine which team won.
[/quote]
Still doesn’t disprove any points brought up, just because games last shorter doesn’t mean that a the odds of drawing aliens over humans become more fair.[quote=“avarthar, post:70, topic:1276”]
So the only thing that stays is the skills of the players. Not the unbalancing or the luck.
[/quote]
Which can be done with the system we are suggesting, and which will not be done with the system you have in place, for reasons listed in above posts and in this one.
I just try to find a way that would work with 1.3. not 1.1 or gpp. Since the olympics should be played in the 1.3
You both have reason.
I was just giving an idea like I stated earlier.
The main point I added is just that if we make the olympics in the current versions. It won’t be balanced.
In 1.3 Everything will be balanced. We will play multiple maps. I didn’t say no to that. I just wrote a little system that could be nice. But it’s not to me to decide. I’ve been talking with the other organizers already to see what we should do. We are working on the olympics and want to make it good.
I wrote the idea here so you guys can give a feedback of what you would think of it.
and I’m extremely thankful on that. I do note everything wrote here so we can make the best decisions.
For the map selection, on the other games tournaments it is already decided like that. Both team choose a map they’re comfortable with or that they prefer. Then the 3rd map is determined randomly between the map pool.
This is where you are wrong. As I stated earlier, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fully balance Tremulous, and a pet mod by some players who aren’t even skilled at the game is never going to reach a better point of balance than the official, thoroughly playtested version.
This is also a bad idea. In CS:GO tournaments (besides Valve’s official tournaments, which have a format that nobody likes), both teams ban 1 map, both teams pick one map, then both teams ban 1 more map and the final remaining map of the 7 is the third map. It’s not random. Tremulous could do the same thing. Have the maps be ATCS, Tremor, Niveus, Nano, and whatever other 3 maps people want (I can’t think of other maps off the top of my head), and then both teams ban 1 map, pick 1 map, and ban 1 more map, leaving a final map for the third game. Alternatively, you could have a pool of 4 maps, such as the 4 I listed, and have the teams each ban 1 map and just play the other two maps. That gives 4 total games, 2 on each team, and unless it goes 2-2, you have a winner.
If the first GrangerHub Olympics is going to occur on 1.3, it is going to be on the Vanilla Game Mode, which is the 1.1 vanilla game play ported. There will be some variations from the 1.1 vanilla game play (probably a lot fewer differences than what is currently posted on the change log), but it will be thoroughly tested by experienced hardcore 1.1 vanilla players with their input, before being used on a regular public server, and then played on such a regular public server enough to allow for any further required miner fine adjustments before being used in competitive events.
Still, even though 1.1 vanilla game play is more balanced than gpp vanilla, and is time tested, 1.1 vanilla still has some fundamental imperfections and imbalances, and even with the minor tweaking/improvements, the Vanilla Game Mode would still undoubtedly inherit a lot of those imperfections.
With the Swirl Game Mode, on the other hand, we hope to address those fundamental imperfections and make the game play even more strategic, more action packed, and more fun. But even though swirl will be available for public playing by the time of the release of 1.3, it is going to take some time and many public games to perfect it, and for the community to get familiar enough with it before being ready for Swirl to be in major competitive events. So the Swirl Game Mode would be something to include along side the Vanilla Game Mode in the second GrangerHub Olympics.
In conclusion, as far as game play is concerned, even if the fist GrangerHub Olympics is played on 1.3, plan/structure the Olympics based on the nature of Tremulous 1.1 vanilla game play.
As sparky said, the 1.3 will be playtested as much as possible. I agree tho that the game can still have some imbalances. But we’re going to make sure there’s as less as possible.
The system of cs:go could be great to use. (Sorry if I didn’t explained it correctly. You pointed what I
3meant.)
As you said, having both team banning two maps and choose one to keep only one for the “draw” scenario would be good.
I’m just going to say the Olypics should not be rushed thus minimising mistakes or miscommunication of how it will be handled.
Please be patient, as Avathar and Sparky have done so, will keep you updated with changes or new features/updates.
I am glad to see opinions being made, this will give a clear path of what should be done or what should be
