Is camping in Tremulous a problem?

Tremulous
12

Camping is the undesirable user behavior resulting from a culmination of several PROBLEMs, and each proposed change addresses different areas of play to deal with the problems. Without going in to too many specifics,

Camping happens because:

  1. Bases are centralized (everything in one place) so all players must return here to resupply. DEPLOY-ABLES decentralize defense and resupply units by putting them OUTSIDE of the base, and the effect on play of putting the players and your units outside makes base defense and resupply more akin to an ‘onion-skin’, with multiple ‘layers’ that need to be fought through & destroyed to get to the ‘core’.

  2. Credits and evos are a precious resource, but the current income system mandates nothing about ‘desirable play’ and players camp to try to build up their own ‘worth’, (enough to get weapons / classes that don’t suck). Making credit income depend on ‘EFFECTIVENESS’ will take into account WHERE and WHAT you are doing to earn credits, where camping actions will result in almost nothing, and getting out your base to try to fight will be very rewarding.

  3. Players have no sense of spatial awareness (by default) in a 3D environment, and therefor their ‘base location’ serves as a visible ‘landmark’ they are familiar with. HIGHLIGHTING your team’s top scorers (glowy effects - even visible thru walls) will make those players be a kind of visual ‘way-point’, making it easier for your team to follow and assist these people, even if you are not that familiar with the map. Additionally, assisting these people would drastically increase a player’s EFFECTIVENESS, and so WHOM you are with will adjust cred & evo income stream.

  4. Players should learn to not rely on base defenses for personal protection or as a way to increase their own lethality. When a turret gets a kill, that is a kill that you did NOT get, and therefor it should be communicated to the player that there was just an opportunity lost to earn the credits from that kill and give them ZERO CREDITS (essentially lower the player’s ‘effectiveness’ to close to nothing if they use structures to assist them).

  5. PRE-SPAWN class & gear selection means the (human) player doesn’t have to be ‘in-base’ to select the stuff they initially want (only to change it), and therefor reduces time spent at the armory, and will also reduce the situations where aliens must stop playing and interact with menus to evolve. Nothing is worse than evolving from Dretch to Dragoon just as a fully charged Luci shot hits you and kills you, one perfectly aimed at you because you became a stationary target. The same goes for humans who get rushed while they are buying at armory, for example when you’ve just bought a weapon and then get killed before you can buy armor.

The goal of my proposed changes is to make the game MORE FUN and also give the players MORE STUFF to do (in ways that build one’s sense of ‘immersion’ into the game- a critical factor in determining if a solution to these issues is the right one), and also have automatic ways to increase subtle team ‘communication’ (information gleamed about the status of your team in the round) therefor enhancing TEAMWORK.

13

so what is this thing called camping?

DEFINITIONish: camping is the process of standing ground, led by the evident recognition that it is the least detrimental tactic. in this, the camper waits for the opponent to attack, ie., to make the WRONG move, first; without such a move, there no confrontation — a deadlock.

camping is to be solved. obviously by making deadlocky tactics not (and far from being) the least detrimental.

what is not camping:

  • being slow to work the armory/evolution menu (typical of new players), whether or not in the base
  • in learning to play the game, not poking further than a more daring teammate
  • standing ground, defending in general
  • AFKing

what is not camping should not be confused with general game issues, and should rather be a topic of different threads.

14

using the definition of camping just described,

the gamelogic sux. period.

what do “multiple layers to be fought through” have anything to do with dealing with camping?1

this is true in general, for any wanted vs non-wanted actions. any specifics for camping?

pl_spatialAwareness is “0”, the default2

yes, to help n00bs learn to play the game. what about camping?

Chuck Norris doesn’t need base defences.3

from a camper’s point of view, that, in itself, is no reason to switch from camping. there is still reasonable chance to get the kill while a base defence is attacking the enemy, and even if not, having the enemy die is still a good outcome.

additionally, making a difference between 0 reward and full reward, depending on whether ur machine gun or the turret got the last shot off, increases the dispersion (luck-basedness) in the game.

PS: pro tip: currently, there’s a thing as a partial kill, calculated by the damage ratio done by players vs the total damage (including turret damage) done.

ofc. and now, returning to the topic of camping…

WRONG. worse is when someone camps.

new thread?

WRONG. that has nothing to do with immersion.

1 deployables may help reduce camping significantly. the question remaing standing, though.
2 indicates a (reply to a) rather disasterous comment.
3 indicates a (reply to a) rather disasterous comment.

1 Like
15

Players want to win and they have a better chance of winning by staying in their base until the aliens run out of EVOs trying to take them down, from which a counterattack can be made. Aliens are given advantages to push out by having regen and easy forward bases, but humans do not. At some point, all the humans need to return to base, but aliens do not. Basically:

the gamelogic sux.

Give humans tools to go out and not be giant pussies/[insertyourgenitalequivalent]

1 Like
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Throw grenades on the ledge.

/Thread

17

OT (not at all)

  • Camping in base
  • Camping outside alien/human base (every human with an helmet against poor dretches) (guilty)
  • Camping behind a corner (tyrs, dragoons) & Camping on blind spot
  • Jetcamping
  • Fake rushing to get kills (lucis vs dretches & tyrs vs rifles) (guilty)
  • Camping with goons near h base pounching every unarmored human (guilty) → camp from humans is the only solution

Necropostin :open_mouth:

18

Which is encouraged here on GrangerHub :wink:

btw @Blizz , you forgot about spawn camping in your list.

Jet fuel seems to have addressed that problem pretty well.

19

Last time I played on the test server, humans had so much default Jet Fuel that they would’ve blasted to the top of the twin towers and still have some left over to melt steel beams.

1 Like
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As Human this could be resolved by “wheneven a single node is far away from the base, that node won’t work —> no spawn. If destroyed still gives to the alien 1 evo”.

As Alien I don’t know[quote=“dGr8LookinSparky, post:18, topic:91”]
Jet fuel seems to have addressed that problem pretty well.
[/quote]

I think jetpack is useless in every way you propose it. I never saw someone rushing with a jetpack. Works only vs basilisks. Maybe replace it with another arm - gadget - something new.

21

I wouldn’t say it’s useless. On cannon maps, for example, with lots of wide open space and perches high on the wall, it enables humans access where no other way would work. I vividly recall MD sniping down from one of the lights in the corner on treecannon (I think - it’s been a while since I played any of the cannon maps).

In addition, consider that we’ve always had it.

Argument from history

Yes, but for the Trem community, that means getting rid of it is liable to annoy a lot of players.
Just my feelings in regard to the jetpack.

– rlb

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No.

Jetpack is what gives humans the verticality that aliens possess for free. They need to give up Bsuit and spend credits for it, build on high ground appropriately and can be used offensively (stay in the air during rushes to avoid clogging up areas) or defensively (to escape danger). Builders can use it. Defenders can use it. Rushers can use it.

Removing it is like removing the hovel. I believe the direction 1.3 is taking by revamping parts of the game at an attempt to improve those parts is a much better idea than outright removing elements of 1.1 and replacing them with “gadgets” or some shit.

1 Like
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This is what you see. I see “I camp where aliens can’t reach me and I kill everyone with MD”

Pls explain better because I don’t understand this. Maybe do some examples because if you mean what I think then I don’t agree.

Agree. Flying bases still provokes camp.

Fixed[quote=“Hendrich, post:22, topic:91”]
Rushers can use it
[/quote]

Never saw it.

Hovel is a barricade with more charm. Useless having it only on S3 (never saw it during scrims). I would like to see it during AS2

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What I’m trying to say is that aliens have the ability to go up walls and access higher areas, which humans without jetpacks cannot do. At this point, alot of the default maps are designed with this in mind.

  • When you want to build on higher ground that, through walking, would take too long.

  • When you want to escape danger, such as jumping to the higher platforms in Arachnid2.

  • When goons go apeshit in the outside area of ATCS. Atleast with the 1.1 jetpack, you have the option of grabbing a couple guys together with lasguns and forcing them back indoors.

  • When the alien base goes down and a few grangers try to hide and start new bases on vertical areas that are either difficult or impossible for humans to normally get to.

The fact is that aliens can wallwalk and humans cannot, but the jetpack compensated for that.

Building structures provokes camps. Everything in Tremulous can be argued to “provoke” camping unless we turn it into Quake 3. The point is that jetpacks give players options, while taking it away removes options. Instead of removing something cool because it can be abused, it should be reworked to fit the game better.

Then I’d say the developers behind 1.3 shouldn’t make the mistake that GPP did and instead consider ways of making it useful, just like the jetpack.

25

Any map where jetpack can get beyond the range of aliens is a badly designed map. ATCS’ outside area is a good height to allow poisoned Dragoons to pounce the humans and bring them down while keeping them high enough to avoid Tyrants and the like.

Hovel is a Barricade with almost twice as much health for 0 cost (200 HP vs. 375 HP). The Hovel also has a shorter build time (15 seconds vs. 20 seconds), does more splash damage upon death than the Overmind (albeit to a shorter range), and enables a shit ton of glitch building and falling out of maps. I think the Hovel actually accounted for the majority of game-breaking bugs that were present in vanilla 1.1.0. The reason it was removed in GPP was because it was a massive problem to fix.

26

With this post I undestand that you think Aliens are more favored than Humans. I think the opposite.

Aliens has to reach humans. If an alien is away from an Human, then he’s dead or useless. Humans have big advantages on open areas. Even if they cant climb on walls, they still can reach every place (just firing).

Aliens = good for small/closed areas
Humans = good for open spaces
Anyway a good Human can kill few aliens on small/closed areas. A good Alien in open areas is always a dead Alien.

Nope. I never saw all human/alien team waiting for the builder (only if there’s the RC move). Even there is a base move, players continue to play (unless there are 5 goon vs 5 rifles, but that is shitmove=grief).

Cause the opposite thing too. If I’m goon and I lose 100 HP because there are 2 jetcampers, then I just come back to my base instead of rushing.

= Shitmaps. All maps should allow to both teams to reach every possible base. (Teams, not classes)

Agree.

27

No. I’m saying that aliens are able to take advantage of the vertical spaces of maps that humans cannot. Thats why the Jetpack is an important piece of the Human arsenal.

I’m not talking about the advantages/disadvantages of either race. I’m saying that the jetpack was an equalizer for alien wall-walking abilities. I don’t care how different either side is, as long as they have options to achieve (relatively) similar results.

I disagree on the basis that structures are a pretty damn important factor when it comes to camping in Tremulous.

Yes, “jetcamping” is a thing, however on the current Test server the jetpack isn’t infinite anymore. Combine this with the human’s need to go back to the Medipad and you can probably grab a few ADV goons together and bring them down. This is what I’m talking about. Reworking > Removing.

Which is a factor that could be very difficult to squash when we consider that aliens can wall-walk anywhere, which is why jetpacks are important. Would I prefer if maps were redesigned like this? Yes. Doesn’t mean its any less useful.

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Maps should all be designed with the famous ''I am the last NIGGER dretch hiding in a high placed vent what U gonna do S1 humans?" in mind (sry karith I stil love you tho) imo

5 Likes
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Nice jump hopper :slight_smile: :thumbsup:

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@Hendrich: Just a rapid answer:
I disagree about what you think of Jet.
Even if there are different ways to camp, I prefer someone that play on ground instead of someone in the sky.
On every match players who has most kills (and so that gives a shake to the game) never uses/barely uses jetpack.
Jetpack isn’t something that fight the wall-walk because I don’t fight dretches, basilisk and grangers with it (I prefer Flamer at this point). If they want to stay where I can shot them without being bited, better for me.

I hope that fuel will work.

“How u got me U evul hakr” Blizz talking to that ____ of GhostisLoL (true fact)

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Jetpack is a powerful asset against tyrants if you use it right. More useful so than getting to higher places to usually build retarded bases that aren’t worth shit.