Any good alien can kill a las gun despite the aforementioned damage.
No shit, this is when you learn a goon can kill 3 shotties if it’s not shit and start playing in a team because it’s a fucking team game.
I agree with MaeJong. This is coming from someone who used to pick the lasgun religiously.
To be fair, the lasgun was best when paired up with the jetpack. Now that the jetpack isn’t the infinite-fueled rocketship that it was in 1.1, I wouldn’t mind a buff (of sorts).
However I don’t think a buff to it’s DPS/firerate/etc is what it needs. What made the lasgun so good wasn’t it’s damage output or it’s firerate, it was it’s sustain. You can go out and use the lasgun way longer than most weapons thanks to it’s ridiculous ammo count and the fact that servers allowed it to reload next to free repeaters (offense) or reactors (defense). Unlike most weapons, I didn’t feel like having to run back to the base after two encounters.
Its not supposed to be “Chaingun #2”. Honestly, I think alot of weapons in Tremulous can be improved simply by keeping them the way they are, but adding in alt-fire modes that compliments the weapon’s role.
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It’s sad how no one is teamworking in humans anymore so everyone wants to turn every weapon out there into a ‘solo/rush’ weapon though, kek
To be fair, the concept of “synergy” in Tremulous has always been completely fucking garbage.
What do I mean by “synergy”? In other games, the humans or the aliens would be designed in such a way that grouping up is encouraged and compliments each other’s capabilities. An example of this was the Basilisk’s area heal to the other aliens, which would have encouraged them pushing forward as a group, if it wasn’t for the fact that it was poorly communicated by the game how the fuck it worked.
The human synergy (atleast what I think Dark Legion was going for) was for Ckits to push for forward bases to support the riflemen. Except in 1.1, had you either failed to build a forward base or had it gone down, would mean your main base would be crippled, incentivizing people to instead keep all the BP back home.
I’m not saying Tremulous should become a FPS-RPG where everyone gives each other passive buffs, but weapons should be designed so certain weapons compliment each other. Same for alien classes.
Right now it just feels like the “synergy” is grabbing (X) amount of players for a rush to defeat (Y) amount of enemies based on DPS, which is probably why so many people on this thread are focusing on how much damage a weapon can do.
The problem is that everyone is fucking terrible and the rest is just racing for kills often solo in a team of polebags vs a team of polebags
Those scores would happen like 0.01% of the time when there was even a playerbase and there were players 3, if not more times better than the best we have at the moment. The only time U would see someone even trying to teamwork our days is in a scrim yet they suck ass because everyone is too scared to go out of their base for 14 minutes in a row (which, again, barely happened before).
Obviously under those conditions support-orientated weapons that don’t assure you a high chance to get the kill (the slower rate of fire, COINCIDENTALLY enough) r not a good pick.
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Base defense, chasing, supporting/suppressive fire (weakening enemies long before they can reach you or your teammates or if everyone is retreating it can be a huge threat in its current state). It was NEVER meant to be a solo or rushing weapon, but it is still excellent at that if you know how to use it. Works best when you’re a bit behind on elevated ground with shotties in front of you for example. A group of 3 accurate lasguns is also deadly. The weapon as it is is also a direct counterpick to marauders.
Also on maps with large player counts, you’re going to be seeing swarms of dretches even in S3. The accuracy of the lasgun completely fucks their day up compared to everyone using chainguns/luci/MD/etc.
If I was low on credits at S3, I’d just fight until I can afford to buy helmet+lasgun then roll in the dosh for bsuit+chaingun. You’d be surprised how much difficulty groups of humans have trying to pick off dretches when the bigger threats gain their attention.
If you are in a solo fight against a Dragoon and you don’t kill it within the 2.7 seconds that the Rifle is firing, you’re dead anyway. If you are in a group fight against a Dragoon and you don’t kill it within the 2.7 seconds that the Rifle is firing, your team is shit. I also showed the math that, if you fire two full Rifle clips (with reload) it is still more than 40 DPS which is only a little worse than Lasgun; if you can make the reload time negligible (whether by having your teammates cover you or by backpedaling hardcore) then Rifle is still way better than Lasgun.
Also, no clue who gets to decide that you should determine DPS based on a time period of exactly 30 seconds, seeing as no fight in Tremulous will ever last 30 seconds unless it’s Granger vs Blaster or some shit.
I’m not pushing for Lasgun to be a solo/rush weapon, I’m pushing for it to not be the worst hitscan group weapon. Every other weapon serves a purpose: Shotgun has high burst damage at close range, Rifle has high burst damage at medium-long range, MD can pick off running aliens or Dretches, Chaingun has a higher DPS for chip damage against larger attacking aliens. Lasgun has the same job as MD of picking off running aliens, but does less damage at a time and thus won’t get that last chunk of health before the Dragoon pounces around the corner and gets away safely. The Lasgun also isn’t as good as any other hitscan gun against Dretches, except the Chaingun, which is still clearly good due to its higher DPS against large targets. The Lasgun also doesn’t have burst damage to help finish off aliens. It’s an okay gun to just keep it pointed at an alien for a few seconds while your teammates do most of the damage, but it just isn’t nearly as good as any of the other hitscan weapons (except MD, although, again, I’m sure people would disagree with me about the MD). If a Tyrant attacks a group of humans, the majority of the time it is fighting the humans a Shotgun would do more DPS than a Lasgun. The only time Lasgun is better is at long range, and smart aliens wouldn’t ever pick a fight with a Lasgun (or ANY human) at long range. If you know humans are waiting for you to approach them in a long hallway, you either wait for them to get close, rush in a large group, or flank them, and Lasgun loses its only advantage over other guns in all of those situations.
It’s worth noting, the fire rate increase from a 200ms delay to 180ms delay is only an increase in fire rate/DPS of 11.11111%, which definitely doesn’t turn it into a weapon that can solo Dragoons unless the Dragoon misses a minimum of 2 chomps. And, for a price of 250 credits, 50 DPS really isn’t all that much.
It’s not the slow rate of fire that is the problem, it’s the combination of a slow rate of fire and low damage output. The Shotgun is perhaps the best gun in the game for its price, and the MD has always been popular for sniping kills. The problem is Lasgun doesn’t have good damage output in the short term or the long term.
Also worth noting, I frequently use support weapons or actively try to assist my teammates in fights when I play humans, as can be seen by my use of the Pain Saw (impossible to solo any good aliens), Pulse Rifle (any alien can just run away faster than the bullets go, so I need a teammate to finish off runners), and Rifle (long reload makes it impractical for solo fights against Dragoon and Tyrant). And yet, even I stick away from the Lasgun because it feels like it doesn’t even do damage to the aliens even when I hit them for a few seconds without missing.
Chaingun and Pain Saw are better.
Mass Driver and Rifle (except at very long range) are better.
Prifle, Chaingun (except at long range), and Rifle (except at very long range) are better in many if not all situations.
Lasgun is worse than most weapons vs. Dretches actually. I have been spending a lot of time Rifling in the past few months, and I can regularly kill ~3 Dretches in a single clip (in ATCS hall, I average 7-8 bullets for a single Dretch when I’m ready for them). Lasgun does damage slow enough that they Dretches have a much easier time getting close to you.
Lasgun has a different role than both and works just as well in base defense for what it does.
Rifle has spread and reload, MD has reload and missing one shot is a huge loss in DPS.
Except lasgun can shoot the alien while it’s coming, while it pounces in, while you fight, and keep shooting another alien coming in the fight directly. You may not have the best DPS but it is CONSTANT. Reload time is a big killer in trem.
Say that to me (under the right setup, fucking kek) and other people who kill them in 3 lasgun shots.
5 Rifle bullets is faster than 3 Lasgun shots, whether you factor in the delay after the Dretch is already dead or not. Rifle is also much less punishing if you miss a bullet or two. I’d take a Rifle over Lasgun any day vs. Dretches except maybe for if there are 4+ Dretches in a group.
Lasgun is far from being bad for dretches though. But it really shines against marauders and goons under the right conditions (which I have explained above). Because of perfect accuracy and no reload it IS a good weapon.
Let’s compare it quickly with chaingun and MD which are widely used in roles that the lasgun is appropriate for:
- Chaingun has heavy spread (so, a shit range and more randomized DPS). It’s also pretty expensive. Chaingun though, has the advantage of being the best weapon against rants alongside the lucifer cannon and painsaw. Lasgun does okay against them but you can’t rely just on it to take them down and it’ll always be in a supporting optic. Chaingun is mostly used to kill big aliens: dragoons/adv goons/tyrants. It suffers badly from its spread against smaller aliens.
- MD doesn’t have ammo worth shit and is a weapon I’d consider somewhat ‘burst-y’. Even more money than chaingun if you take battpack. They are both almost TWICE over the price of the lasgun. Furthermore, MD is usually mostly used to get rid of small aliens very fast. Lasgun is more centered around controlling (the term is important) basilisks/marauders/dragoons.
- Lasgun covers up the shit ammo of MD and the spread of the chaingun while allowing to output constant damage for extended period of times. Also another advantage of the lasgun over the chaingun is that it’s an energy weapon. The downside? The DPS makes it harder to use against goon+ and rants.
Ex. usages:
- Long-hall base or wide entrance. You can shoot whatever comes in and never release the pressure.
- In a group with other teammates, the goons will be too scared to jump in directly so they will try to ambush or flank. A good use of the lasgun allows to force them to back off and push, or annihilates them if goons jump in (clearly negating all chances of them escaping given you’re with a shotty and winning the fight). Additionally if you are the only one poking, no one will ever have to reload unless they jump in and even then you probably preserve 2 shots of each of your mates, and can provide cover for sure when they reload. How2win fight? POKE.
- Better chasing than MD: MD has more DPS but you will often be on low ammo while chasing. Unless you have perfect accuracy, lasgun is a better solution overall, since it also allows you to chase multiple targets ([color=red]![/color] Yes it does.)
- You also provide constant damage to your group, especially when everyone is reloading, this is not negligible. If you are smart and manage to feint a push when aliens prepare to jump in, you may scare them away.
- 3 lasguns combo playing on the weapon’s main advantages: its clip size and accuracy.
- It is important to mention that the lasgun is the best poking tool, since you will barely ever run out of ammo. They can’t and won’t wait out for you to empty your clip and jump in.
- Base assaults prior to AS3. Includes early rushes, as long as you have sufficient protection you can take the entire base out mindlessly. In general, taking tubes/trappers out without having a window of weakness caused by the reload.
It is also a reliable weapon against basilisks in general, you can start shooting them off from afar and never have to stop shooting.
Honestly if it’s the price that’s a problem, since lasgun usually is better played with teammates protecting you or just behind people/defensively, you will get a lot of money before dying anyway. It could be lowered to 200 creds, but it’s already worth the price in my eyes. (Especially since, yes, most of the time you don’t have to pick a battpack.)
You guys really want to buff the lasgun? Lets compromise.
Lasgun and Luci now requires to be reloaded like the rifle. Just like the MD and the Pulse Rifle.
Increase battery pack price by 150 credits and its only available at S3. Make it so that buying the battery pack slightly increases ammo count of all energy weapons AND you no longer have to reload energy weapons (you keep shooting until ammo depletes). BOOM, now everyone has a reason to buy the battery pack which actually deserves a buff.
Each energy weapon’s maximum ammo is different based on it’s effectiveness. So for example, Lasgun ammo reserve > Pulse rifle.
Hendrich i hate to break it to you but you’re an idiot if you think battery pack needs a buff. And a pulse rifle without a reload? That’s going to be a fun one…
Lets not compromise.
Thats the point. If we’re going to needlessly buff weapons, atleast go all the way.
See the thing is, some people don’t think it’s so “needless”, as can be evidenced by the people in this thread who agree that the Lasgun could use a buff. I don’t think anybody here is arguing for a Pulse Rifle buff or a Battery Pack buff or any buff that they don’t think is deserved. Furthermore, only your suggestion was one that would egregiously affect the balance of the game.
That seems like a valid point, I concede to your logic.
We should plug the tremulous.h into a google doc spreadsheet.