[POLL] What are your feelings about the map A.T.C.S.?

Tremulous Assets Factory Mapping
22

Why is it you think transit is heavily human biased? Yes, it has VERY open and long spaces which favour human aiming, but it’s a large map. Larger maps greatly favour aliens due to their increased move-speed and ability to survive without a base. A lot of people commonly misjudge the overall balance of a map just by the ability of humans to aim. Additionally humans spawn with no armoury/medistation and 0 turrets. Jetpacks are very powerful, but so is the ability for aliens to scatter eggs, the map is so large even with a helmet it’s difficult.

As of now we have more good human players than good aliens players

Maps like transit favour humans over aliens, but this rebalances the game. The way I see it, the raw power goes to the aliens but the ability to adapt to a map should go to the human team. ATCS takes that advantage away from them.

There is almost zero reason not to use a Tyrant in ATCS, variables maps allow diversity between the alien classes. A rant cant hit this spot? Use a mara. A goon can’t snipe here? Sneak in with a basi. This type of gameplay rarely presents it’s self in ATCS. A rant rush is very commonly the reason for human defeat on this map. There is no reason for class diversity because the strongest brute force class has NO weakness there. The rants only general weakness is it’s size and lack of moveability, none of which are an issue in ATCS.

Why do people dislike Mercy?
What about that map… 1987?

I refuse to believe ATCS, the most ugly and basic map in the default rotation, that was apparently constructed in under 30 minutes beats ALL the maps ever created in the history of tremulous.

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23

Humans can (and regularly do) build a camp base which is near impossible for aliens to kill. Jetpackers are almost impossible to kill in many parts of the map, and the long open areas are exactly where humans thrive. Moreover, the alien base is unbelievably bad, and there aren’t any good locations for the alien team to build. I only ever see aliens win on this map if they have a much better team, and even then it can be challenging.

I never use rant unless there are no eggs or all the eggs are about to be killed. Goons are faster and can flank easier than rants, which is part of the reason that I use them.

Mercy is just bad. It looks like it could be quite a nice map, but it doesn’t play that way at all.

1984 is OK but it’s not exactly small and it is quite alien biased.

Name me a more balanced map. There is a reason that most scrims are on ATCS, and that most servers in trem’s history have had ATCS playing a major (if not exclusive) role in the rotation - it’s very well balanced.

24

No. Wrong. Absolutely wrong. You see, its not the “space” thats a problem for aliens but whats in-between those spaces. Without walls, covers, vents, openings, elevation, props, models, debris, etc to cut visibility between the range of human fire and Aliens hitboxes, aliens are easier to kill. Full stop. This has always been true because Aliens were designed to be weak against long-range.

This applies to structures as well. Placing a turret in the middle of a large space makes it significantly more dangerous than placing an acid tube in the middle of a large space. Turrets are designed to cover 360 degrees on their own. Alien structures generally don’t, as they are more effective tucked in corners or on choke points because the problem is that humans can simply shoot open structures.

This is the reason why we see aliens camp so often in the trains or relocate to other chokepoints. Transit sucks ass because it doesn’t try to break up that open space often enough for aliens to take advantage of. It also doesn’t help that the disgusting amount of grey on the map makes aliens stuck out like a sore thumb unlike actual good maps like Arachnid2 that has a mix of bright and dark areas.

Its just strange to see that you would have grievances against ATCS yet defend maps like fucking Transit. Fuck Transit.

… Unless you have multiple Tyrants in the hallway tripping on each other’s ballsacks as humans rush together with chainguns and lucifiers.

Do we play the same videogame? The reason Tyrants are so strong on ATCS is not because of it’s health or strength. Its because the Tyrant can roflcharge out of danger as a backup Tyrant roflcharges back while his buddy heals. This was something GPP actually did right by nerfing charging.

You keep doing that because militant ISIS child soldiers have more reasonable beliefs than thinking Transit isn’t the gigantic grey brick of granger shit ever shat into the /base folder.

25

One word: “Epic”

Although Epic deserves a topic in itself :wink: .

26

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA YEAH
GPP NERFED CHARGING RIGHT JKNSAJKNSNJKAKLJSNNJAKJNLWBDAHJBDAHJKBWHJKABSHJABSHJKABWHJBAHJS AHJBSHJABSBHAJKHBWHJBSHJABSHJBAHJWKLFNKLANVCJKANEIOP:HUIQbJAKLSANSLJNAKJNSASJKNASJNAJKNSJKNAKJNS

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27

It’s not wrong for the reasons I already listed, I am assuming it’s not a massive open space like the map epic.

Not sure I agree with this, turrets that aren’t against a wall get out rotated easily by any alien class. Hazzard tubes are an important use of acid tubes early on, the slow and damage is AoE. [quote=“Hendrich, post:24, topic:1386”]
It also doesn’t help that the disgusting amount of grey on the map makes aliens stuck out like a sore thumb unlike actual good maps like Arachnid2 that has a mix of bright and dark areas.

Its just strange to see that you would have grievance
[/quote]

Implying over 80 percent of the players aren’t either running lightmap or a gamma over 1.5.[quote=“Hendrich, post:24, topic:1386”]
Its just strange to see that you would have grievances against ATCS yet defend maps like fucking Transit. Fuck Transit.
[/quote]

I am not talking about adding transit to the rotation, I am just talking about it’s overall balance. Having some maps favour each slighty slighty is fine every now and again. Look at CSGO, some maps favour T some maps favour CT side.[quote=“Hendrich, post:24, topic:1386”]
Unless you have multiple Tyrants in the hallway tripping on each other’s ballsacks as humans rush together with chainguns and lucifiers.
[/quote]

Implying goons don’t block almost as bad and suffer half the HP. [quote=“Hendrich, post:24, topic:1386”]
Do we play the same videogame?
[/quote]

Yep, and I play it considerably more than you.

?? Goons can jump away, mara can jump away, rants have a charge. The charge is inferior movement to a goon jump. It’s movement is not it’s strength.

I’ve found your previous rarity of posts on this forum somewhat witty and humerous but you are just being aggressively insensitive.

How about you suggest a map considering you know so much more than me about this game.

Didn’t see you were trolling until I spotted this, well played.

28

We can agree to disagree.

Just like how acid tubes would get rekted if they weren’t tucked into corners or walls? My point is that a single turret is a hell of alot better in open spaces than a single acid tube. That means a line of turrets fares a hell of alot better in a open area on Transit than a line of acid tubes or even hives simply because humans have the advantage of shooting at them from a distance. If aliens start running to defend then the humans will simply refocus on them.

This was your original question:

Because Transit has a shitload of open space that humans can take advantage of alot more than aliens can TO THE EXTENT that its not fun to fight or build around.

We might as well throw in other factors like people using custom textures to have the enemy team look like pink power rangers with targets on their head. I’m concerned with the design of the maps, not what console commands people use to gain an advantage.

I never said or implied you did.

Having some maps favor each other slighty is fine every now and again. Look at

“Slightly” is the concerning part here. I agree that asymmetrical maps should be the direction Tremulous should strive towards instead of symmetrical maps like ATCS, but Transit is not a good example.

The 1.1 Tyrant charge is not it’s strength for initiating team fights or escaping danger? I’m going to have to disagree with this point. The charge is why Tyrants get away with the shit they do on ATCS. In fact, people would just spam charge on 1.1 as an alternative to walking.

I’ll be sure to tell Jihadi John that I’m being “aggressively insensitive” on the internet.

I should have specified that even though GPP completely fucked up Tyrant Charge damage, it also toned down Tyrants from spamming charge inbetween seconds of hold-presses as an escape if you timed it right. Unfortunately they decided to swap one cancer out with another.

That “maneuverability” is what made 1.1 Tyrants on ATCs bullshit to fight against. Tyrants were basically bulldozers that stopped every 2 seconds to shove a jet engine into their assholes.

-EDIT-

No, fuck it, it was even worse than that because I forgot to mention the quirks. Sometimes the charge got buggy (especially during lagspikes) where you were allowed to start charging immediately after your last charge, essentially letting you to charge twice in succession. I can’t believe that shit wasn’t fixed for the longest time.

29

I don’t really like ATCS but, it’s enjoyable if you play it right. Most games are usually goons and dretches rushing naked rifles and shotties and after S2 they rant and it becomes a luci spam fest along with major blocking from tyrants and tking.

Advanced goons camp outside on top of bunker along with tyrants and humans get trapped unless they all go csuit and rush hall and sweep the floor.

In the end aliens win due to major camp and the cycle repeats.

The map has its flaws but is still enjoyable IF any of this stuff doesn’t happen

30

It is VERY heavily human biased. This coming from me. If you really want an explanation as to why, beyond what Shuffle explained, we can talk about it in another thread, as this is not a thread about that.

Tyrant is boring, and can not do hit-and-run attacks on the human base. Adv. Goon solves both of those problems. If more people coordinated Adv. Goon hit-and-run attacks in SD rather than just YOLO Rant rushing, that would be the better solution to dealing with human base without losing hundreds of evos.

Some people dislike it because it’s really bright. I dislike it because it always kills the server (population-wise). I’ve never seen more than a 6v6 on Mercy_b2. And personally, I prefer Mercy_b1, but that’s not the most recent/final version. Just in general, the gameplay on it is less fluid and more just suiciding on the enemy defenses repeatedly. There is no flanking, as the enemy base is caught between the two paths. It’s just “which path do you want to take to go die?”

1984 is very big and was a part of the fourth rotation for a long time (maybe still is). Definitely not a good map for replacing ATCS because it’s not even close to the same scale.

I think that 1984 is only alien biased because of its size. The map is alright for humans, but when there are few people aliens can escape easily and control most of the map due to their speed. When there are a lot of people, aliens just overrun the humans. There isn’t an in between on 1984.

Are we talking about sector51? The map that shouldn’t exist, let alone being in the rotation?

It is true that the majority of scrims in 1.1 are on ATCS. That was not the case in GPP, however. More scrims in GPP were on ATCS than any single other map (probably), but scrims on all other maps outnumbered scrims on ATCS alone (probably).

While this is true, it’s still a stupid argument. A turret in the middle of a large space dies more easily than a turret against a wall, and any turret that is not near other turrets is an easy target for any alien except a Granger.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Gamma 2.0 here chiming in, and Lightmap on Tremor. You are most likely correct.

It’s different when you play on both sides in every single game. In Tremulous, you don’t switch sides at half-time. You lose or win and then go on to the next map.

Overall I think this discussion has run off course. ATCS is quite clearly an enjoyable map to a majority of players. As for balance, it is also inarguable that it is one of the most balanced maps in existence for pub games, as thousands of games of statistics showed in the past. TremStats (as talked about in the other thread) would actually help solve the problem of knowing team balance on maps. Given enough sample games, it would eventually become statistically relevant.

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31

2015 has fatal colours and contrast. you can’t see opponent precisely. i have no visual problems with hd version but it sometimes crashed my trem. someone also said something about worse performance. imo, that’s enough to stay with the default
also what’s the point of introducing new, identical map? ppl have to wait to download it

32

atcs is ok

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33

Besides the worse performance, I know some people complained about the fog in atcsHD. Personally it doesn’t bother me, but it’s another thing to consider.

35

krtv wins this thread LOL

36

A.T.C.S has always been there since I started playing. I played it everytime I played tremulous and I will continue to play it as time goes on. :smiley:

I want it in my dream server for sure.

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37

No fuck that if you had a dedicated mapper you wouldn’t make him rework a map that was already remade dozens of times.

It should be removed before we get sued for burning someone’s retina to dust.

38

The best games that I have ever played through were on ATCS ( rest assured that I have tried out other maps as many times ). This of course doesn’t mean ATCS is the best map. I enjoyed a lot of the crappiest maps. That said, there might be a lot more to consider, in the vast variety of maps, apart from map balance.

39

At the time of writing: 53% saying that ATCS would play at least a major role in their server’s rotation. 71% said that ATCS should at the very least be in the rotation.

If you’re going to ignore the fact that ATCS votes regularly pass, and that people on the server want to play it, and that it’s been the most played map in 1.1 trem history, and that it’s arguably the most balanced map in trem, this poll shows that people do want it to be a major part of the rotation.

40

“Actually not available has 18% compared to major role 15% i didn’t read the at least part im just going to ignore that and continue to claim this poll is unbiased”
-Unknown

41

What is the point of this poll?

42

At the time I make this post:

  • 28 votes have been cast

  • if the categories are assigned consecutive integer weights with atcs not being available at all on a voter’s dream server assigned the value of 1, and atcs being the only map available on a voter’s dream server is assigned the value of 7, the current distribution of votes averages to 3.6 which is between atcs having a minor role in the rotation and atcs having a major role in the rotation.

  • 29% of the votes are in the two categories that don’t want atcs to be in the rotation of the voter’s dream server or not on the voter’s dream server at all, while 13% of the votes are in the two categories that want atcs to be the only map in the rotation of the voter’s dream server or the only map on the voter’s dream server. The extreme minority that is least favorable towards atcs on this spectrum is 2.23 times larger than the extreme minority that is most favorable towards atcs on this spectrum.

  • 47% of the votes want atcs to have a minor role in the rotation or less.

  • 38% of the votes want atcs to have a dominant role in the rotation or more.

Conclusion: A large majority of the voters are not in extreme favor of atcs, the voter base is made up of a variety of tastes in maps, it is important to a large majority of the voters to play maps other than atcs on a regular bases to some degree.