That was just to give an idea as to how tremulous maps have a pretty large scale in relation to the playable models due to the fast pace of the game play. If nothing else changes in the map, then the soda machine would look small in relation to the rest of the map. If the maps is made smaller, and the pace of the game play remains the same, in when there is action the map would feel very cramp.
For a casual game play option, I think generally if all player speeds were 75% of their current speed, that would work well (further fine tuning of various values would have to be adjusted of course), With just that change alone, new (more compact) maps would have to be made (and/or existing maps adjusted) specifically for this new game play option.
It is true that for autobuilding in a possible casual game mode, construction kits and grangers would’t play the same kind of role as in other game plays. However, they could still have parts to play in other ways (one such example might be for upgrading buildables).
Tremulous has had full servers in the past. If we are successful in reviving the game, there will be full servers again. When planning and working towards growth, considerations need to be taken for how things will be during and after growth, not only in terms of the current state of the player base.
Being “most friendly to new players” is not a good design goal, because once they stop being “new”, the play is no longer suitable for them.
Instead, having new features to on-board people will help them learn the game and give them a “fighting chance” against more experienced players.
A large part of Tremulous’ appeal comes from trying to overcome the challenges the player will face, the ‘sportsmanship’ of playing gg’s against skilled opponents regardless of who wins, the fast paced action, and risk of failure if your team isn’t cooperating vs. reward when it is.
As discussed in other topics (TODO: insert links here): the availability of bots, a proper tutorial mode, and even a single player campaign (or some combination of all of the above) would help the player develop the skills needed to succeed.
There are other ways to accomplish this that could enhance the game-play instead of hindering it.
Again, this can be addressed in other ways. But we can explore that in a different topic…
Having the ability to win a game in short amount of time (if there is a vast skill difference between the teams) is critical to pacing and keeping the matches progressing. Anything else will needlessly fatigue players…
This is best if addressed within the mechanics of the game itself (with waypoints/squads/vsays etc), not chats.
"But that wasn’t REAL Socializing™ "
Socializing and community is great, so think of ways to improve direct messages (which are only as spammy as the participants of them want them to be), chat groups (which people can mute if needed), friends lists (and blocking ppl) and invite system (pickup game and also organized scrims and tournaments).
I think this is kind of off-topic here, let’s focus on improving the Tremulous we have now, not a concept for a new mode (here). “Casual games” have some certain implications that I don’t feel quite fit with the reflexive-twitch / team-ego shooter/combat nature of the game, but might fit with a different system for building, changes to the control and pace of the game… might look too different from “Tremulous” (if you do it RIGHT!). Again, this needs its own topic.
Options are good, but having too many options can just be confusing. I think we should stay fully focused on swirl improvements here, because otherwise what-are-we-even-doing-mang
I know that is an appealing aspect to a lot of players, but really that isn’t high up on the aspects of Tremulous that attracts me personally. Tremulous has attracted a lot of different people with different tastes over the years for different reasons, especially with the variety of mods that have been available. Some aspects resonated differently with different players.
For me, the aspects of Trem that resonate the most is socializing, team problem solving, strategizing, and immersive scifi theme. Also the asymmetric nature of the teams is interesting, as well as the ability to manipulate the environment. In my opinion, rather than trying to have a single game play that would be every potential trem player’s favorite, we can have multiple game plays that serve different purposes.
Then they can move onto another game mode option. Although I think the proposed casual game play would be fun for experienced players too , and would be ideal for chilling with friends. Having a game play where new and old players alike can chill and socialize together would likely encourage the new players to stick around longer and become regular members of the community, and explore what else the game might have to offer.
Yes, challenge is a good an important aspect of the game, but it is important to be challenging without being punishing, there is a difference (as was discussed in this topic: An educational video). Punishing aspects of the game have been a major issue for a long long long time, and sure there are people who endure that to make past the wall and start to become a non-newby (perhaps we might be considered among them), but that punishment likely filtered out a lot of people who could have otherwise become valued regular members of the community. Sure the game should be fun even when losing a match, but a lot of punishment can take away from that fun, even when winning.
A couple of general punishing aspects:
A build system that is so sensitive that an inexperienced builder can very quickly unintentionally ruin a match for their team, and be blamed by a lot of other players for it.
Being consistently steamrolled (not just lose) by experienced players (and/or by aimbots).
Griefers ruining matches, and/or cheaters gaining a huge edge.
In a more competitive team sensitive game play, if mainly experienced well intending players are involved, and new players/griefers are taken out of the equation, that can be a very fun experience for those involved.
With a slower pace, players can play longer without being fatigued. Whether they are playing some matches that might last longer, and/or playing a lot of short matches.
I haven’t played this game much at all, but I think that switching to +25% speed would make the game feel off in subtle ways and off-putting when you switch to a “pro” mode, so new players would be less likely to play Swirl after playing the casual mode and not more.
If anything, a casual mode should change the metagame and not the core.
There was a player in Unvanquished who joined just to build huge bases, so… I’ld like free building to stay in a casual mode.
Isn’t this not exactly 100% fixable? The pros will always be able to stomp on the non-experienced, that’s just how games work, yes we could give the other team say a upper hand, etc but I don’t think it could fully be removed or “fixed” without ruining the game for the pro’s.
High pace games = fun, slow pace games = fun, it goes both ways, it more the less depends on the player and how they want to approach playing the game. Maybe have both options?
“Automatic building” is a myth unless you invent some magical tremulous AI that knows your team’s intent.
Player-crafted “pre-built base layouts” to load for either team, within different map zones seems like it’d be much more practical and interesting than “automatically” placing different buildings in random places on the map… Additionally, the creation of these could be “casual”… thoughts?
I agree with this, it’d seem like the best solution as we don’t have that magically incline granger to see into the future what kind of base we want. In addition about the Player crafted “pre-built base layouts”, it kind of seems similar to the current layout system, but perhaps, it’s accessible to anyone or perhaps the layouts change positions on the map randomly, though that might render the whole base useless in some situations, and wouldn’t exactly be easy.
It’s not a problem that “experienced players win”, the problem is that if you don’t do well in the first place, you’ll get less and less resources to work with in the future, while the other team gets battlesuits and tyrants. The game could even be set up to level the playing field somewhat and still not ruin the game, as long as it’s not too much of help.
Would there be some specific way to track the skills of a player? Perhaps using like X amount of kills or KDR, then again it’s really odd to have a game where the point is to get evolved and win, but be limited by the fact that the other team plays more than you.
That is one of the possible approaches to automatic building, where there would be different zones defined around the map, and each zone could have multiple zone specific layouts, where one would be randomly selected when on of the teams take control of that zone.
But it is also possible to write an algorithm that would automatically place buildables in a given zone. Such algorithm generated bases might not be as effective as player built bases, but that might not be a bad thing, where if forwards are automatically built, losing forwards wouldn’t be as much of a big deal, and there could be a lot of ongoing base construction/destruction throughout the match. Additionally, a benefit to having an algorithm based auto-generated bases is that there wouldn’t have to be a lot of manual preparation (although @romdos ’ suggestion is interesting that the players could make these layouts, perhaps as spectators, for future matches, although you would probably want to specify which players are allowed to make those layouts) for each layout in each zone of each map, and there would be more variation in zone layouts.
That algorithm based autobuilding would still be specific to conquered zones, and would still depend on teams taking and keeping control of zones.
Note that this is the case even in games without upgrades; the real problem is that if every class is made available from the start, the game would consist solely of tyrants fighting against lucifer cannons and everything else would be obsolete. So the real challenge is to first create a system that limits the use of powerful classes while still being fair.
That can be done with a system that controls the rarity of items well. We will be trying out two different systems. One is dynamic pricing where the prices of each item changes personally, based on the usage of a given item, and other items that have similarities.
Another approach is to essentially give each item its own “currency”, where when you get a kill progress advances for each item, but the progress of one item can’t be transferred to that of another. Higher tier items can require more progress, and thus be used less frequent, however using them wouldn’t sacrifice the lower and mid tier items as options (how annoying is it to save up for an expensive item, lose it quickly, and then only to start out poor again?), so we should also see a lot more variety.
Here’s one testament to the importance of being socialization-friendly environment: there’s another multiplayer game Teeworlds, and it has been essentially taken over by a mod called DDRace. The game is a fighting game like Quake but 2D, and the mod is a cooperative maze-clearing game.
Some mazes are difficult, but the mod is still fundamentally chill and slow-paced. Even though the game does not show mods by unless you uncheck a checkbox, still, as you uncheck it, you will see the player count jump from like 150 to 800.
The “skill syndrome” doesn’t help either, there are only few maps that are played, just like Tremulous ATCS but far worse.
