Complaints about not having Unreleased code yet

Tremulous
93

@Hendrich:
The initial post was about a release in general, at least i interpreted it that way:

The exact annoyment starts with these endless delays of deadlines. Maybe it is abit dickish to demand a release but those releases were promisted so often that i feel brain fucked by all this. I’m not interested in the code because i wouldn’t use it but i can understand that some ppl here want it. Why not being honest and say that you fucked up - at least deadline-wise.

I hold back for a long time now and all i see over and over are endless text-blocks and ‘not much done’. I don’t try to be mean here or troll you but i’m really disappointed. If you promise stuff then deliver. Stop fucking around.

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94

Posting this just in case someone hasn’t been paying attention:

59E2ATA.png802×315 33.5 KB

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95

Depending on the “demands”, sure. I’m not against holding people accountable, but being a “dick” about it isn’t going to gain them anymore free time, resources or motivation to get it done on time.

Seems reasonable. Likewise, any new “promises” need to be handed out more cautiously than handing out free money. For a team with such limited resources, the only reasonable timeline should always be “When its done™”.

96

i dont want ur face any more

#wooped

[size=1]jk[/size]

on topic: yes the code is very rough so far but we, the devs, are working around the clock for you so don’t worry we will release it soon!! hang in there

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97

How comforting! Let me just say that we appreciate how hard you and the devs work.

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98

insignificant statistic based on set of size 0, the set being the modding community (consisting of 1 d00d), excluding those who have already expressed abstinence from contributing code.

by definition, darklegion development consists of contributors, or rather contributions, to Tremulous.

what part of the often-repeated explanations (in this thread !) did u fail to not deliberately_ignore ?

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99

Yes, blame the lack of contributors on… the lack of contributors?

I wasn’t developing Tremulous, but a fork of it.

No one cares about the excuses.

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100

^fixed.

that still falls within the definition of Tremulous. but in any case, since ur „fork code” applies (legally) to Tremulous, the former is a contribution to the latter, and thus u’re included.

in other words, „darklegion development” is a fancy name for „various authors”, to avoid author-list hell.

why is this a response to me, not to @Matth ?

101

Yes, no contributors = no contributions, but why there are no contributors? Because there’s no modding community (=no contributors)?

The original developers credited every contributor on tremulous.net and in-game and kept the SVN repository (including the authors of all the changes) public for everyone to look at.

Because, by convention, people response to the author of text they want to comment on and not someone else.

102

Seems valid, only it is not sound even in Tremulous’ current state, as Tremulous does have active contributors (plural as in more than one), it does have contributions, there are still active modders, this community is not dead, and this project is nowhere near abandoned, but I do agree that the community could go much much further after an initial release (provided there is something of sufficient quality released).

I agree. What the community does care about is results and tangible progress that they can feel and experience. Actions speak louder than words, and that is my current primary focus.

Either we fail and this particular thread gets forgotten in an abyss of obscurity as life always goes on. Or we succeed and this thread gets forgotten in an abyss of obscurity as people will be too busy having fun, on an updated advancing Tremulous in a growing community of players and contributors, to care about this current foot note in Tremulous’s timeline.

Perhaps some may find the second possibility outlandish at this current point in time, but I know that even though our objectives are not easy to achieve, they are achievable, reasonable, and practical. I know we have the capabilities, interest, and willingness to follow through. The community will know that as well, as the milestones that they can see first hand are conquered, and that the realization of a successful Tremulous revival becomes clearer.

I am not going to say how much longer this will take (until I know that we will release on a specific day without the possibility of any delay/postponement), but what I will do is do my best in in helping make our objectives reality, and I have confidence that enough of the other contributors in this community will do the same.

103

^fixed.1

1 the „=” sign got crossed out (horizontally), and replaced with a bold (which is often irrelevant to the following sign) „⇒” sign. xD

well, the most useful answer is: because shit happens, ie.

(this is also the most useful answer to why the P vs NP PROBLEM has not been resolved, and in general to why didn’t the human race discover X, either to this point in time, or some given time before the human race actually did.)

so the chain of logic is: (contributions = ∅) ⇐ (contributors = ∅) ⇔ (modding_community = ∅) ⇐ (shit happens) ⇐ (LAW™S_OF(R)_PHYSICS(C))

WRONG.

WRONG.

WRONG.

WRONG.

yes, and since this is so obvious, the question must be asking for a more in-depth explanation, that is:

  • ur response suggests that „why not […] say that you fucked up” was not directed to a post essentially saying that we fucked up. really ?
  • otherwise, u’re calling the linked explanations excuses, so ur response could be applied to any elaboration on putting off of deadlines, and is thus better applied once and preemptively, to the „why not [collect excuses]”. wat ?
104

Totally has nothing to do with the project being closed-source¹.

¹ No one outside GrangerHub can build the entire thing so it’s effectively not open-source. You can argue it’s “99% open-source” but it’s meaningless and no one cares.

You’re using code from Cuboid.

Nothing is obvious when talking to you because you have a habit of writing incomprehensible sentences.

I don’t know that the post is “essentially saying” because it’s a few pages long and I don’t have the time to decrypt it. I just assumed it contains excuses (what else could “often-repeated explanations” mean?).

WTF? Would the following conversation make any logical sense?’

[quote]Matth: Why not being honest and say that you fucked up?
enneract: No one cares about the excuses. //what fucking excuses?[/quote]

105

so if it’s 1 line that is not open source (eg. dragoon chomp damage decreated from 80 to 72), then it’s meaningless to open source, and noone cares.

that comment of mine was originally to @Menace13, to answer „Why has there been exactly this much progress ?”. when quoting myself, i signed that part of my comment off under the interpretation with this thread in mind: „contribution” meant an instance of members of the „modding community” submitting code. otherwise, there have been multiple, and there r going to be multiple contributions of the „code adoption” kind.

yes.

106

Only one line being off would be just a minor inconvenience, compared to missing most of the new functionality.

What does it matter? Either way some of the code I’ve written is used by your project.

For the record, I don’t care if you use it or not. I don’t even care about being credited, because that was never the point of my work. My problem is the hypocrisy surrounding the project, such as saying you’re a community “open to everyone,” then not releasing the code and calling contributors “thieves.”

TIL making excuses = admitting one’s mistakes (no, they’re not completely opposite, as it turns out).

107
  • still, why does anyone need to see the GH-exclusive code to contribute ?
  • have u counted the size of the public new stuff (among others, the tremulous.net’s GitHub repository: latest (new) vs GPP release (non-new)) and estimated that of the non-public ?
  • btw, what if everything was made public, except for the multi-protocol code ?

now u know exactly what i meant, and how that fits into the picture of why there r as many contributions as there r.

say no more until u’ve re-read the explanations.

WRONG. u’re not a contributor (see above), and yes, u’re a fucking crook.

that’s called overlearning. u should have learned no more than the fact that „excuse me, i fucked up” is an explanation for the proposition that we were not deliberately lying. btw, congratulations, u’ve successfully lost track of this part of the thread.

108

Because people want to host their own servers (to not participate in your petty politics).

You’re using my code and no amount of mental gymnastics (like making up convenient definitions on the spot) changes the fact.

Yes, independent server owners are literally Adolf Hitler.

It’s really easy to get lost when no one else but you knows WTF you’re talking about. How is “I fucked up” an excuse? Are we even using the same language?

[quote=“Wiktionary”]excuse ‎(countable and uncountable, plural excuses)

  1. (countable, uncountable) Explanation designed to avoid or alleviate guilt or negative judgment.[/quote]

Or is “I fucked up” an explanation? Of what exactly, that you fucked up?

109

WRONG. u’re just making up bullshit in an attempt to get us to allow u to exploit the last of this community.

i am not using ur code. u’re a fucking crook, and no amount of mental gymnastics (like mentioning that GH is using ur code) changes that fact.

PS: where did i say that GH is not using ur code ?

yes.

read the above post, u fuckwad.

110

I’m certainly not the only one who would like to host another server.

Where did I say you (singular) are using it? I thought it was pretty clear I meant GrangerHub as a whole.

FTFY.

¹ I assume @Matth is the “NIGGER,” am I correct?

Calm down, it’s just an Internet discussion. You can always just turn the computer off.

111

@enneract , couple of posters called you a thief in hyperbole. Even though I believe you have exhibited behavior here that is of poor conduct, I disagree with the sentiment that you are a thief. I have no reason to believe that you are a thief nor that you have nor intend to commit any other crime. Such accusations and other personal attacks don’t benefit productive discussions. Your poor behavior doesn’t make some poor responses to said behavior by some posters any less poor. But poor responses to poor behavior is the objective of trolling.

Additionally, I believe your intentions are irrelevant to the complete releasing of the code. The code isn’t unreleased by GrangerHub to withhold it specifically from you, nor specifically from anyone else. You and anyone else can choose to do anything the license permits (or even choose to do nothing at all) with any released code, and hopefully the best uses will be successful.

What GrangerHub has chosen to do with the released and unreleased code is work on it and prepare it for a good shot at a Tremulous revival, and GrangerHub’s choices, in how at this point in time GrangerHub works on the code, has been made for the purpose of fulfilling that goal (and a big part of our intentions to achieve that goal is releasing publicly the code when we have determined it sufficient enough in quality to accomplish GrangerHub’s goals).

You may or may not share GrangerHub’s goals as among your goals. You may or may not disagree that our choices in approach will achieve those goals. You may not like the intermediary situation with our approach. That is fine, you are entitled to your own opinions and views. But we have every legal right to make these choices. We are exercising our freedom the software’s license provides. It is in the nature of freedom that not everyone else will like one’s choices in use of one’s freedom, and freedom doesn’t guarantee that one’s choices will lead to desired results, freedom can be a very messy thing, but hopefully our choices will work.

WRONG, technically everyone who has produced code/assets/etc that we are making use of in 1.3 counts as a contributor to 1.3, even if they may not have contributed with the intention of this specific project using those contribution and/or may not be currently working on new things that may contribute to this project (cough cough VACATION™ cough cough).

@enneract has at least been a past contributor to some public Tremulous code that we have incorporated into some of the 1.3 code. (To be clear, he has released more than the code of his we will use, so don’t take my use of the word “some” as a statement of the total amount of code he has released, the initial release doesn’t require all of his released code).

Of course if he wanted to, he could even publicly contribute towards remaining items on our TODO list to assist the 1.3 project in achieving its goal earlier, or even work on things that are not on our TODO list and make the case for incorporating such work into the 1.3 project. If new work is completed, is made available, is relatively straightforward to incorporate into this project, and would benefit this project, then that is certainly something to consider incorporating even if we didn’t plan for it. The same applies to any other potential Tremulous developer independent from GrangerHub.

But also if he wanted to he could work on independent Tremulous development that he might apply as his own mod of 1.3 for his own modded Tremulous server(s) upon the 1.3 release. Or he could even mod and host hist own modded 1.1, gpp, and/or protocol 71 (which would benefit from players using the pre-release client) server(s) now, provide a game play experience and atmosphere people would enjoy, and put in a serious effort to attract and retain players from even outside of the current Tremulous playerbase.

Speaking of excuses, it seems that someone has been using the fact that some of our code is currently unreleased as an excuse (the term scapegoat is applicable as well) for not retaining players on their server, and ignoring the facts that there are fundamental problems (more than just related to multiple protocols) in the game and community that has existed long before GrangerHub started (the very same that GrangerHub is working to solve), the fact that attracting and retaining players even for a single server would take a great deal of additional hard work than in many other currently active games until those problems are solved, and the fact that just hosting any server (even if it had the multiprotocol feature) is not enough to attract and retain players in the long term as the experience is more than just the technology itself.

Ok, that’s enough tl:dr essay writing by me for today, time for more coding :slight_smile: .

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112

Actually, there are other people who want to host multi-protocol servers, including @faceman and perhaps the OC server crew, along with a number of other people who dislike the “petty politics” of GH.

I get that English isn’t your first language, but “we fucked up” is not an excuse or an explanation. It is nothing more than an admittance of failure.

Which is almost literally impossible and most definitely a waste of time and effort.

I don’t think any other server owners share in your delusions of a Tremulous revival, they only want to host a better server than GPub for the sake of those who still play and complain about GH every day. However, without the multi-protocol code, no server can ever be “better” than GPub, and thus no server can get off the ground since it would be impossible to attract one half of the playerbase or the other. It’s not an excuse, it’s a simple fact of how competition works between servers vying for a share of the playerbase. If any other competent server owner had the multi-protocol code, GPub would be dead in a week. Obviously you know that and refuse to share that specific bit of code because it would result in a smaller audience for your delusions and eventual (read: improbable) Tremulous 1.3 release. I refuse to believe you are too stupid to understand that.