Why are you pointing me to upstream? Are you expecting me to duplicate all the work you (supposedly) have done or what? I’m not interested. If I were then I would have done this a long time ago instead of waiting for half a year and hoping that your next promise won’t be empty like all the others.
because what u want to do — look at some code and see what u can do —, applies to that.
no, i’m expecting u to either
- do new work (if, based on published information, u’re not 100% sure whether ur idea has already been worked on, then ask), or
- admit that u don’t really want to do jack shit, just want to rip the code off.
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I was doing new work, on New EDGE, but it’s hard to compete with a multi-protocol server (which, as I said earlier, I don’t feel like reinventing). I would contribute to your gameplay mod if the code were public and not kept secret for whatever stupid reason.
By the way,
I don’t think you understand the point of open source.
good. if u recognize a feature that we’re likely interested in (eg.; port Q3MME to Tremulous — yes; design and implement a new nuke admin command (uberpowered explode2) — no). if u do well, then u could be given access to the source code earlier, which will at least allow u to set up appropriate Git branches and commits.
wtf is to „compete” ? and what relevance does it have to contributing to GrangerHub ?
what keeps u from contributing to Tremulous ?
here is what open source isn’t about:
- get the code
- modify it in a malicious way to get „front-page advertizements” displayed from the time a client connects to the malicious server
- argue that it’s just a redundancy measure
really, with the multiprotocol code, this is what u want to be able to do more prominently; nothing else.
I doubt I’ll ever see the full source code since GPL would allow me to redistribute a copy to anyone I wanted and that would be just horrible, right? I’d only be given the parts needed to implement whatever gameplay changes I wanted, so I wouldn’t be able to host a competitive (multi-protocol) server. You don’t want competition because the toxic GrangerHub leadership would drive all players away to other servers.
Your multi-protocol server can (and does) attract more players than a vanilla 1.1 or a vanilla GPP server. Since Tremulous barely has any players left, they all play on the most popular server. Since all non-GrangerHub servers are empty and GrangerHub is anti-open-source, people like me have nothing left to do in Tremulous.
Unvanquished is superior in every possible way, with one exception. It doesn’t have a playerbase yet, so gameplay development isn’t feasible (yet). This is why I’m interested in modding Tremulous (but I can’t do it, see above).
I agree that putting direct links to the server in the main menu was in bad taste, but how possibly can this be considered malicious? The server browser is still there and not hidden in any way.
I’d say your monopolization strategy and fraudulent claims that GrangerHub is somehow the new tremulous.net designed to unite all players, servers and developers and to continue the “official” development of Tremulous are far more harmful.
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I want to have 1.3 ready for release as soon as possible. When we release the code and the binaries, we want it to make the greatest impact for Tremulous to grow, and for that to take place a bunch of features need to be finished that addresses the many issues that got in the way of Tremulous reaching its full potential. We want to maximize the chances of success for the initial release.
We are not doing this work for a single server, this work is for Tremulous and its community as a whole to play and work on with friends, for anyone willing and capable to host their own server to do so, and for anyone willing and capable to further develop Trem and their own mods to do so.
I welcome 1.3 servers that would compete with GrangerHub hosted servers, the more the better. GrangerHub’s servers will strive to be the best in such competition. Tremulous needs variety in servers, server owners, developers, modders, mappers, modelers, etc… That is what would make the game and community rich. Such members of the community wouldn’t have to use GrangerHub’s resources to contribute to the game and community, but they would be welcome to do so.
@enneract , I think you and a couple others who ran New Edge have failed to see the real reasons New Edge emptied, and it isn’t because at the moment GrangerPub has multiprotocol and New Edge doesn’t. If when we release 1.3, New Edge is ported to 1.3 (which would not be a difficult task) and New Edge management continues their same mistakes, I doubt very much New Edge will regain a playerbase. Maybe Unv is empty for similar reasons. The sooner 1.3 is released, the sooner that point can be demonstrated.
But we are not working on 1.3 to prove a point, we are working on 1.3 to improve Tremulous and the community, and playing and working on Tremulous is fun. I want 1.3 to be ready and released as soon as possible, because that is when the fun will really start to pick up.
We will be posting that announcement that outlines the status and plans for the initial release very very very very S00N™.
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Then why are you keeping the development secret from the community? It pretty much guarantees the release will never happen or will happen too late to be of any significance.
What other explanation could there possibly be?
We are not keeping the development secret from the community, we are publicly testing, and having open discussions with the community. We will release the source code when the basis of a good complete server and a good complete client is ready for widespread use. You might be primarily interested in hacking some pieces of Trem for another game, GrangerHub is interested in making Tremulous and its community grow, viable, highly active, and evolving more than ever before. GrangerHub is working to ensure that the initial release is not a failed reboot that falls on its face out of the gate.
New Edge is not my project, I no longer play on their servers, and I no longer contribute ideas/suggestions/advice/etc to New Edge, I have neither the time nor interest to do so. I’m not going to rehash what I already recommended to New Edge many times before. It is New Edge’s management’s responsibility to learn from their mistakes and adapt. Sure you can continue to blame others for failures, and continue to ignore reality, but reality isn’t going to ignore you. I have a lot of good memories with friends on New Edge, despite the problems, and I never wanted New Edge to fail, but its success is not my responsibility.
Good luck with your project, I hope you do figure out how to turn it around, but I’m not going to be any part of of that project. There is a lot of already released code you can work with, and when we release 1.3, you can use that in any way you want under GPL, like everyone else, but for the 1.3 code, you are just going to have to wait a little longer until it is ready for a successful release, as GPL permits us to do.
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Yes, you are publicly testing the results of development, but the development itself is kept hidden and no one outside GrangerHub can know what’s going on. Also, I’m not sure if dodging my questions by repeating “soon™” or your supposed goals ad nauseam can be considered “having open discussions”.
Then why did you bring it up if you weren’t willing to explain your point of view? Just to make a petty ad hominem?
This thread is not about New EDGE. It’s about your project and how you’re misleading the entire community with all of your empty promises. I’m not the only one running out of patience.
Yes, you are publicly testing the results of development, but
the development itself is kept hidden and no one outside GrangerHub can
know what’s going on. Also, I’m not sure if dodging my questions by
repeating “soon™” or your supposed goals ad nauseam can be considered
“having open discussions”.
I don’t see whats the problem with this is. If they want to keep the development hidden then they can. its not your business. Neither you can DEMAND this. So what is your point, except bitching about it?!
What exactly does Sparky dodge? I think he answered you in a meaningful and understandable way.
To sum it up for you:
1 - Code is public on initial 1.3 release
2 - Sparky, as many other devs can’t give (always) exact deadlines when stuff is done. Every software developer will mostly agree with this and actually sparky just says that when its done then its done. Isn’t that hard to understand right?
3 - Sparky IS NOT dodging your questions. You are only not happy with answer you have got.
4 - ad nauseam became this discussion after you realized that you didn’t get what you wanted. Asking same questions over and over and ignoring the answers u have got is actually YOUR problem.
Ofc you can ask for everything but that doesn’t mean that you are going to get it. As long as Sparky and his team are following the GPL rules we can’t really complain. Scaring ppl with license-discussions to force them to do what you want is obsolete.
Then why did you bring it up if you weren’t willing to explain your point of view? Just to make a petty ad hominem`?
I really have to defend Sparky here, Show me any line he openly insulted you personally. This is not true so no he didn’t.
Actually Sparky was talking about his experiences about other mod projects which, in this case, was new edge.
I don’t know what happened there but he has the right to explain and outline why and how he acts in this matter. I think he did a good job in doing so.
This thread is not about New EDGE. It’s about your project and how you’re misleading the entire community with all of your empty promises. I’m not the only one running out of patience.
Did you have any evidence about the theories you build up here. Where/ how hes misleading? In answering your questions? Being polite? To care about your fears and hopes? The entire community? He stated that he and his dev colleagues are trying to build a new version of Tremulous. Okay not all promisses are reality by now but some are and they are still working on it and please keep in mind that all this is based on non payed labour a.k.a FREE-WORK they do in their free time. You really can’t demand anything and please tell us who runs out of patience too (as if that matters anyways except showing how smug and improperly you behave).
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First of all, I’m fully aware of the terms of GPL and that GrangerHub isn’t violating the license in any way. I’m not demanding anything or saying that the developers have to release the code.
What I’m saying is completely different. GrangerHub has declared itself the new “offical” Tremulous website and the new “official” Tremulous developer. The site’s motto is “Build Tremulous, evolve the legend”. It promised to revive Tremulous and rebuild its community, to release a new version of the game and whatnot. I’m saying that they are morally obliged to keep the promises they made.
Of course, I do understand that delays happen, but it’s been over 6 months and over 10 missed deadlines so far and GrangerHub still haven’t kept any of its promises. Nothing has yet been done to prevent the steady decline of Tremulous’ population, “Tremulous 1.3” is sort of a mythical creature at this point and so on. This is why I said GrangerHub was misleading the players.
I also understand that they’re working on this in their free time, but this is yet another reason to release the code now and let other people contribute.
For example these people seem irritated:
***[23:29] [S] Marx was a retard: i still don't understand why the code isn't public ***[23:29] [A] UnnamedPliers: cuz they know that if they let anyone else make a multi-protocol server, they would lose all of their playerbase ***[23:29] [A] UnnamedPliers: nobody gives a shit about grangerhub
***[23:49] technoviking called a vote: [Poll] 'still waiting for trem 1.3?: Yes icant wait [F1] No, Trem 1.3 is a Fake [F2]' ***[23:50] Vote failed (3 - 7)
This is getting ridiculous.
We have not declared such a thing. We created GrangerHub to provide community and development resources for the Tremulous community as a whole, for those who choose to use those resources. Anyone else can attempt to do this as well, GrangerHub just happens to be the only one working towards that as an objective, and no one else thought to try it at the time GrangerHub started.
Grangerhub is working on developing a complete new version of Tremulous (not a mod) the get this game as a whole and the Tremulous community as a whole growing again. We just happen to be the only ones doing that at this time, no one else thought to try it at the time GrangerHub started.
GrangerHub worked towards eliminating the artificial divide between the Tremulous community created from the 1.1 gpp split years ago, no one else thought to try it at the time GrangerHub started.
The fact is that Tremulous and its community had major issues long before GrangerHub started, that caused both considerable damage, and set both on a destructive path that was not necessary. Right before we opened GrangerPub, both gpp and 1.1 were in a state of near final collapse, and while we would have preferred to open our first servers as finished 1.3 servers, we saw that the game and community was in an emergency situation and needed us to create a usable multiprotocol server, even though most its code is old and buggy, and the website wasn’t finished, in order to keep things intact long enough while we worked towards finishing a new version of Tremulous, and a new community website that would resolve all the fundamental problems of Trem, that got in its way all these years.
Tremulous does not need to die, despite its age, Tremulous is not obsolete, it is still a very fun game, and the community as a whole is still made up of very good people.
Tremulous is a Free and Open Source Software project, there are no official roles, anyone can work towards the objectives that GrangerHub has. Tremulous needs variety in independent server owners/developers/mappers/modders/etc, but Tremulous first needs to get a good enough push back in the right direction so that such variety, richness, activity, and growth can be viable. This is why we want to ensure that 1.3 has sufficient enough quality when we release.
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As a side note, not only has Tremulous stopped shrinking at the moment, but its activity has been slowly increasing, but I expect exponential growth when we release. Which is one of the reasons I want the initial release to occur as soon as possible, but it will be done the right way.
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You created GrangerHub “to provide community and developing resources for the Tremulous community as a whole” and are “working on developing a complete new version of Tremulous”. This certainly does sound like you’re trying to replace tremulous.net and Darklegion Development, especially that they’re both pretty much dead. That and GrangerHub will be the de facto official Tremulous site to any new players it attracts to the game.
I’m not saying this is a bad thing. I’m criticizing you for not delivering on all these promises. If I wanted this project to fail then I wouldn’t be wasting my time trying to convince you to do the right thing.
Citation needed. Tremulous.net’s graphs show a steady decline.
I venture to take issue with this statement. The 400 day graph (which seems most applicable to the case, as GrangerHub has been around about 400 days) shows a roughly steady population: slight downward trend, but by no means steady.
Consider also: the aforementioned chart shows ~15 players per day at the present moment, but according to the 2-week chart no day has had less than 25 players at one time (some above 40 at once). Statistics can be misleading.
– rlb
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First of all, I’m fully aware of the terms of GPL and that GrangerHub isn’t violating the license in any way. I’m not demanding anything or saying that the developers have to release the code.
here:
(…) but the source code is kept secret and it’s unknown if it will ever be released.
(…) Good idea. Let me just clone their code repository and see what I can do. Oh wait, there is no code repository.
(…) code were public and not kept secret for whatever stupid reason.
and btw this whole thread is a demand by itself isn’t it. Otherwise: why does it even exist then?
[quote=“enneract”]
(…) GrangerHub has declared itself the new “offical” Tremulous website and the new “official” Tremulous developer. The site’s motto is “Build Tremulous, evolve the legend”. It promised to revive Tremulous and rebuild its community, to release a new version of the game and whatnot.[/quote]
So what is your point?
Yes their goal is to do a new Tremulous … and? Are they done yet? Again, it takes time. Bitching doesn’t help. I understand that you’re hot to play the new Tremulous but its done when its done.
I don’t think that they break a promise by now. How can they if they say that they are still in development? .
I think this website shows their effort. We have a new community and it grows, you can’t see that?
Oh now its not about the code and content, now its about morally? Is it unethical to promise things you brake later: yes, but they didn’t do that (yet). If they shut everything down and stop any communication then i would agree but thats not the case.
So for one thing you say you understand delays and then again you say it takes too long? You are very contradictory here.
Its not true that they failed to deliver ANYTHING they promised. We have servers to play on. One of them has a testing enviroment for newer implementations (like helping new player to play the game). We have a forum and a website AND a small but constructive community.
And so on what? Its mythical? What does that even mean? If you can test parts of it via test server then whats so mythical about it?
Well if you understand then why you bitch so much about it.
I don’t see the coherencies in publishing the unfinished code to the public and reaching the goal. We don’t need 10 clones who drives players away. There is no prove that open code projects always done faster then closed. I think they doing right in developing behind the scenes because too many cooks spoil the broth and what is wrong if they want to do their own thing? An open code invides ppl you may not want to contribute. I can understand that. Again: your argumentation isn’t plausible. You are kind of intolerant towards ghub.
Aha, annonymus ppl on server no one knows -check.
So,2 ppl who are known and they doesn’t seem to be that impatient like you. But i see the effort from you trying to come up at least with some sympathizers.
I wonder who is ridiculous here. Ppl who answer you or you who takes my statements out of context to proof himself right.
Lets put it back together: I defended him because he didnt do what you implied: Ad hominem and this point was in no way connected to that waht happened at new edge. Please stop this kind of derailing or ppl will stop having discussion with you because its time consuming and pointless / childstuff.
Btw: please ackknowledge evidence and answers from others and don’t ignore them by demanding new evidence of stuff you stated earlier. I understand that this is a nice peace of rhetoric, to make your opposition shut up because they won’t do the work in rephrasing your assertions. Its ludicrous.
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Take a look at the last graph. The playerbase has shrunk by about 75% in the last 400 days.
By saying that I’m not demanding anything I meant that they had no legal obligation to release anything. I’m merely asking for information and suggesting releasing the code now, before it’s too late. GrangerHub leaders are free to ignore me.
Is it really a new, growing community or just whatever is left of dead 1.1 and 1.2 servers? Moreover, it’s dying, not growing (see the first paragraph of this post).
You’re missing the point. There have been so many delays. On top of this, GrangerHub is keeping the development secret, which makes it look as if the release is never going to happen.
It would prove that GrangerHub is in fact serious about reviving Tremulous and building a community.
Make a forum poll if you want actual statistics. I quoted these people just to show that I’m certainly not the only one who’s dissatisfied.
Well, i’m not here from the beginning and therefore can’t say much about how often ghub pushed deadlines but i can understand your disappointment. I’m sure we will see news soon as sparky promised.[quote=“enneract, post:37, topic:1406”]
It would prove that GrangerHub is in fact serious about reviving Tremulous and building a community.
[/quote]
Argumentum e contrario it wouldn’t proof that they are not serious about their project, Actually it proofs nothing. It’s a theory by you[quote=“enneract, post:37, topic:1406”]
Make a forum poll if you want actual statistics. I quoted these people just to show that I’m certainly not the only one who’s dissatisfied.
[/quote].
Actually i support this idea.
Tremulous 1.3 was supposed to be released around August 2015, then it was delayed to September, then late November, then early December, then late December, then January 2016, then February 2016 and it looks like they’re delaying it once again. There also was supposed to be a public test of Tremulous 1.3 launcher earlier this month.
Ironically, the latest empty promise is in this very thread (emphasis mine):
It would prove it at least to me and perhaps to other people skeptical of this project.
@dGr8LookinSparky, what do you think?
My promises are not empty, I want us to finish a few particular important milestones before I make the comprehensive announcement about the status and plans for the initial release. These particular milestones took a little bit longer than expected because of technical problems that came up but a huge amount of progress was made in that regard, and they are almost finished. I will be showing some new accomplished actions with my comprehensive announcement.