Map release: Fortification

[Matth]

Since your reply is free from devil i thank you for your reply!

@Menace13

One large thing is that the clipping in the outside area feels extremely unintuitive; just by looking at the walls of the outside area I was completely unable to predict which areas I could get to or not get to.

Since the limitations of the q3 engine, designers are forced to set up barriers to limit the players movement. In this case there are invisble, slick walls. I didn’t want to put an electrical fence around the map. Many maps have this ‘problem’.
I think its interesing for both sides to find all these spots and think about if its a useful spot or not. esp. aliens may have an advantage here.

@Menace13

Also, there are some spots outside where Dretch can hide and be unkillable or nearly unkillable against S1 and maybe even S2 humans.

I was able to use jetpack and shoot those spots. are you sure you didnt fell through a structure somehow?

@Menace13

In this spot above the entrance to each base, you can move further back on the human side than on the alien side:

Fixed. In the next version it will be the same.

@Menace13

This little ridge in the upper hall from each default base causes significant problems for wallwalking. When trying to go from the ground directly to the wall, if you don’t jump to a part of the wall above it you may just get stuck and not be able to wallwalk up the wall.

Fixed.

@Menace13

Lights are solid objects with zero clipping, which messes up wallwalk, pounce, and just in general impedes movement

Fixed. (was lot of work to fix all that btw)

@Menace13

prevents wallwalking on the ceiling

Fixed.

@Menace13

This ladder in mid messes up wallwalk

I couldn’t reproduce this problem. Works fine for me.
The ladder is now closer to the bottom.

@Menace13

This door in mid

Its now traveling sideways[quote=“Menace13, post:3, topic:2708”]
the doors outside which lead to the indoor elevators, the alien side one doesn’t have a texture on the side that is visible when it is open
[/quote]

Fixed[quote=“Menace13, post:3, topic:2708”]
on them when trying to walk through the door, especially the extremely thin doors from outside to the indoor elevators.
[/quote]

Denied. Go outside walking leftways. That way u wont get stuck. I never got stuck on that door. Even with goon you can go through it easily. Also: if i would change it it will result it: making more polygons to create a shaft for the door otherwise it simply wents in the wall and ppl would say WTF BUG! Again is a tradeoff.

@Menace13

In this case it’s an unimportant optimization, but since I was checking out doors I noticed that this door in human/alien base is not clipped to be flat. In this case, since it only gets thinner in the middle, it doesn’t really matter much, but human can crouch under the bump and not be able to stand up (as seen in the picture).

I couldnt reproduce this stuckness but found some error textures. Anyways walking back frees you from not being able to stand up. At this point i don’t see a bug in this.

[Matth]

@Menace13

Also, I didn’t mention this in my original post, but there’s a weird thing with the elevators. If you press the button to make them go up, then stand on them, they don’t go down because you’re standing on them. So you have to press the button, wait for them to start going down, then get on them before they go too far down in order to avoid fall damage. Not sure if that’s intentional or not.

They move up by just standing on them (ground). If you are on the platform u need to push the button to make the platform come up. It will go down after some seconds by itself.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

@Matth

Since your reply is free from devil i thank you for your reply!

@Menace13

One large thing is that the clipping in the outside area feels extremely unintuitive; just by looking at the walls of the outside area I was completely unable to predict which areas I could get to or not get to.

Since the limitations of the q3 engine, designers are forced to set up barriers to limit the players movement. In this case there are invisble, slick walls. I didn’t want to put an electrical fence around the map. Many maps have this ‘problem’.
I think its interesing for both sides to find all these spots and think about if its a useful spot or not. esp. aliens may have an advantage here.

Could that be done in a way so that it doesn’t break from immersion? What I mean is having invisible geometries block you, and forming “compartments” that you can “hide in”, feels kinda out of place. Perhaps have it so that those boundaries near the intersection with the wal-lwalkable parts of the map are visible in some way?

Something else of interest that I don’t know if it should be “fixed” or not is that you can build on that bay door so that when it opens the buildables drop, this could be a problem, or it could be fun .

[Matth]

@dGr8LookinSparky

Could that be done in a way so that it doesn’t break from immersion? What I mean is having invisible geometries block you, and forming “compartments” that you can “hide in”, feels kinda out of place. Perhaps have it so that those boundaries near the intersection with the wal-lwalkable parts of the map are visible in some way?

How? By using a fence like in ATCS? Ofc the sandstorm pushing you down would make sense but try adding all these entities…

@dGr8LookinSparky

Something else of interest that I don’t know if it should be “fixed” or not is that you can build on that bay door so that when it opens the buildables drop, this could be a problem, or it could be fun

Definitely fun! xD

[dGr8LookinSparky]

@Matth

How? By using a fence like in ATCS? Ofc the sandstorm pushing you down would make sense but try adding all these entities…

Maybe a dome force field?

Idk, I may have to think about it more .

[Menace13]

@Matth

I was able to use jetpack and shoot those spots. are you sure you didnt fell through a structure somehow?

I was unable to test killing the Dretch there with Jetpack since I did it locally by myself. In that case, the only problem is if humans kill the eggs at S1, then they have absolutely no way of dealing with the Dretch in Example 2. Example 1 is killable even at S1.

@Matth

I couldn’t reproduce this problem. Works fine for me.

Strangely enough, I can’t reproduce it now either, which is weird since it happened to me twice in a row last night… It’s probably just a standard wallwalk bug (i.e. sometimes being flung off the wall when rounding corners), and not a problem with the map.

@Matth

If you are on the platform u need to push the button to make the platform come up. It will go down after some seconds by itself.

- YouTube

Ignore the low FPS and jerkiness, I didn’t feel like optimizing the recording settings. The elevator will not go down while any player is standing on it. However, a player can walk onto it the moment it starts going down and it will go down all the way (although it goes straight back up afterwards unless they are off it again). Admittedly, I don’t know of any way to fix this, but I figured I’d mention it just in case there’s some obvious solution that I’m missing.

@Matth

Fixed. (was lot of work to fix all that btw)

and all the other accepted suggestions

Thanks you very much <3 once you upload the fixed version I will almost definitely support this map being in rotation. Looking forward to getting to play it!

[Matth]

@Menace13

I was unable to test killing the Dretch there with Jetpack since I did it locally by myself. In that case, the only problem is if humans kill the eggs at S1, then they have absolutely no way of dealing with the Dretch in Example 2. Example 1 is killable even at S1.

That might be right but you can have such a situation on karith or transit too. Its just a gameflaw.

@Menace13

Ignore the low FPS and jerkiness, I didn’t feel like optimizing the recording settings. The elevator will not go down while any player is standing on it. However, a player can walk onto it the moment it starts going down and it will go down all the way (although it goes straight back up afterwards unless they are off it again). Admittedly, I don’t know of any way to fix this, but I figured I’d mention it just in case there’s some obvious solution that I’m missing.

Thats really weird because i can’t reproduce this bug. For me it works perfectly fine.
It may be a qvm problem. I use vanilla gpp qvms. That might explain your problem.

@Menace13

Thanks you very much <3 once you upload the fixed version I will almost definitely support this map being in rotation. Looking forward to getting to play it!

You’re welcome!

[Matth]

Addition: even with a clean install there is no particle error. Hmmm
New version released. See first post.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

@Matth

@Menace13

Ignore the low FPS and jerkiness, I didn’t feel like optimizing the recording settings. The elevator will not go down while any player is standing on it. However, a player can walk onto it the moment it starts going down and it will go down all the way (although it goes straight back up afterwards unless they are off it again). Admittedly, I don’t know of any way to fix this, but I figured I’d mention it just in case there’s some obvious solution that I’m missing.

Thats really weird because i can’t reproduce this bug. For me it works perfectly fine.
It may be a qvm problem. I use vanilla gpp qvms. That might explain your problem.

It could be the QVM that comes with the client Menace is using. I just tried the lifts on both test7341 and on GrangerClub and the y work fine without experiencing that bug.

@Matth

@Menace13

I was unable to test killing the Dretch there with Jetpack since I did it locally by myself. In that case, the only problem is if humans kill the eggs at S1, then they have absolutely no way of dealing with the Dretch in Example 2. Example 1 is killable even at S1.

That might be right but you can have such a situation on karith or transit too. Its just a gameflaw.

We are trying out something in the Swirl game mode where if all your team’s spawns and om/rc are dead, you have a couple of minutes to rebuild your om/rc or try to win, or your team starts taking damage until death. With such a game play feature, the problem of the last player hiding and being virtually (or actually) unkillable is solved. Perhaps there may be a more eloquent way of addressing the issue. But as you have mentioned, this is a problem that many other mainstream maps have and is more of a game play flaw than a map flaw.

For the vanilla game play, I guess humans are just going to have to make sure they at least have hs2 on such maps before winning .

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Fortification version 1.1 is now available to play on the GrangerPub server, the GrangerClub server, and the test7341 server.

@Menace13

Thanks you very much <3 once you upload the fixed version I will almost definitely support this map being in rotation. Looking forward to getting to play it!

Perhaps we found our replacement for Gloom2Beta2 in the rotation? Of course we need to see some good matches on Fortification first .

[Menace13]

@dGr8LookinSparky

It could be the QVM that comes with the client Menace is using. I just tried the lifts on both test7341 and on GrangerClub and the y work fine without experiencing that bug.

If that’s the case, it’s probably my QVM (although I have no clue what QVM it is). I just open Tremfusion and do /devmap mapname to test maps, and it definitely has some bugs that I know about, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that was just another bug.

[Ckit]

@Matth

Addition: even with a clean install there is no particle error. Hmmm

Thanks for looking into this. Which client are you using? It could be a tremfusion related bug with this map.

[Matth]

Stock gpp, win10.

[BillyRazOr2015]

Windows 10 is still not stable yet because of the program ages relationship. My opinion is better using Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 for stabilize it unless you can set compatibility mode to Windows XP SP3.

Another one is NetRadiant had supported Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 as it already had fixed bugs for latest version, but GtkRadiant is not supposed be able to continue improving functions for Tremulous since 1.6.0 version. The last supported for Tremulous is 1.5.0 and it’s from 2007 updated, that because it was outdated and only will supported up to Windows Vista and for setting compatibility mode required are Windows 7 or 8.1.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

I haven’t experienced the missing particle bug Ckit mentioned on the stock gpp client nor on in development 1.3 client on Fedora for this map on test7341 and on GrangerClub (I didn’t get a chance to try the map on GrangerPub yet, but it should work the same exact way as on GrangerClub).

On test7341 there are missing sounds for the lifts, but that seems to be a bug with the server we need to fix as the sounds are all present on GrangerClub.

[Ckit]

It’s likely tremfusion related.

Appears to be happening on some other maps so may not be related to this map.

Fixed by uninstalling and reinstalling the map.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

@Matth , which pk3 dependency has the sound files you used for the lift?

[Matth]

the only sound i added was the ambient sound at the landing bay. The lifts use stock trem sounds. Whats the big deal?

[dGr8LookinSparky]

I’m tracking down a bug on test7341 where the lift sounds used by Fortification are not loading for some reason.

WARNING: Failed to load sound sound/movers/plats/pt1_strt.wav!
WARNING: could not find sound/movers/plats/pt1_strt.wav - using default
WARNING: Failed to load sound sound/movers/plats/pt1_end.wav!
WARNING: could not find sound/movers/plats/pt1_end.wav - using default

Do you happen to know which stock pk3 file has pt1_strt.wav and pt1_end.wav?

[Menace13]

Okay, after playing a bit on fortification, I’ve found one major problem that makes me not want to see it in rotation at the moment.

280 BP is WAY too much. That’s enough for 3 nodes, an arm and medi, and almost 30 turrets. If humans move their base to the upper hallway, rants can only get to the base by the elevator, and that means the base is almost entirely invincible. I don’t see any need for more than 100 BP on this map, even in the default base.

Also, I couldn’t find a single light that is non-solid in v1.1, not sure if that was supposed to be fixed in v1.1 or not. This also means that if you walk up to the wall on an elevator, a light can block you and force the elevator back down.