Oh, I just remembered a couple of other improvements from gpp that are being kept:
Aliens can obtain fractional evos. If alien A accounts for 60% of the damage of a killed human, alien B accounts for 25%, and alien C accounts for 15%, The earned evo(s) would be divided base on the same fractions. However, this also means that if only one dretch bite to the ankles is sustained by a killed human that received the rest of the damage from alien buildables, that dretch only gets a fraction of the evo based on its contributed damage, and the rest of the evo is lost.
Tha bug where buildable models drop below the actual buildables when built on edges is fixed. So no more invisible edge boosters/dc/rets/etc…
Teslas can zap over rets (As Mae just brought up).
Another new feature being added (that wasn’t in gpp vanilla) is that the melee attacks will be improved so that a target that can receive damage that is within range, that is within your line of site, and that is the closest to the cross hairs, will be damaged. Two significant things result from this, when multiple targets are within range of your melee attack and within line of site, you can accurately pick a specific target, also map objects will no longer block your melee attack from damaging a target within your line of site and within range.
It might not be OP with adjusted values such as the damage, and maybe even reducing the maximum number of targets within a zap chain.
admittedly i haven’t read every single point everyone has made in this thread, too many walls of bullshit imo, but i think i can play a role in this discussion as i feel like many ‘gpp noobs’ want the easy game back that held back good players (pro aliens in gpp couldn’t do as much as pro 1.1 alien players, humans is less of a difference as their strength isnt that different from both games, tactics are) on the other hand i feel like there are a lot of hardcore 1.1 fanatics that are not open to discussion about changing the game because they are used to the game they’ve played for so long. Seeing as i’ve played both games i think i can provide an unbiased opinion (contradictory but w/e) about actual implementation:
Some arguments against intended basi changes: 1) OP as there would be no reason for fwds anymore 2) basi players would get too many abilities for 1/2 evos
A possible nerf for basi players could obviously be: giving it 80hp and upping mdriver dmg from 38->40 (would also change md vs goon battles, but that’s open for debate) while also giving basi the regen.
If you keep seeing basi as an assault class rather than a support class, there is no reason to even debate these changes. Although im shit at basi, it’s still mostly a whore class, it can’t actually do shit other than get kills (against a decent h team)
Zap is retarded in gpp as it’s weak as fuck against suits (13dmg or some shit like that) yet you can kill a rifle (theoretically) without him even seeing you as hitboxes around corners are weird, does 60dmg vs nakeds #OP.
I’m really dissapointed that the gpp repeater hasn’t been discussed. The current debate over how much bp a team should have is retarded, give humans more bp and they have more camp structures, give humans less bp and they have more reasons to camp, just implement the gpp repeater: costs 4bp, makes free 20bp in only to be used in it’s own zone (zone is 1/2 of rc zone), no other repeater can be build in that zone, and repeaters cant be built in rc zone. in other words,repeater allows humans to build forwards, without bogging down the main base defences, humans can get map dominance more easily, but can’t camp any harder.
Guide on gpp building by meisseli, better explanation than i can give you
Marked deconstruct works counterintuitive for the most part, only really helps on atcs moving to tunnel at start of game, but that’s predictable anyways, so shitty feature imo.
Gpp aliens have shitty health regen compared to 1.1, which is why basi / fwd is so vital in gpp (yeah you 1.1 fuckbois might think you had it bad, think again, 2hp/s goon regen ftw) you really can’t implement gpp basi without also removing 1.1 regen or booster, and that’s going to recieve a lot of resistance.
gpp suits were overused, but that’s also because of normal armor getting 3 pounced by goons (op gpp days), so i really don’t have a clue about what would happen if you gave goons an easier time vs suits in 1.1. Chaingun however, really isn’t the problem as it’s a good counter to rants and goons when grouped.
Btw @devs idk what bsuit hitbox is, might just be this gpp scrub over here overaiming cuz im used to it, but think very carefully about making the hitbox accurate like gpp for bsuits, a lot of veterans are going to get annoyed at getting body shots vs bsuits if you implement gpp suits. I have the feeling suit hitboxes are not as tall in 1.1 as they are in gpp.
Maybe default alien crosshair implement as well in hud :>>>>
This doesn’t mean anything until you prove it. [quote=“Shuffle, post:16, topic:1241”]
Don’t like this at all. It makes it way too easy to move a base, and aliens/humans can’t ‘hold buildings hostage’ anymore - this was a small advantage you could get from map control, and is especially important in scrims.
[/quote]Great point.[quote=“MaeJong, post:17, topic:1241”]
I agree with turning timed evos off for scrims. Timed evoes are important in pub though.
[/quote]I came to say this.
Not with 1.1 damage fall-off. The problem in GPP was the damage fell off much slower, so it could do hundreds of damage from a single zap. 1.1 has a different way of handling damage fall-off when jumping from one target to another, and it makes it much weaker for destroying bases. It might still be troublesome, but it won’t necessarily be brokenly strong.
You are not remembering GPP health regen speed correctly, nor the gameplay itself. GPP still had the same booster as 1.1. GPP aliens healed 1 health at a time, but at different speeds (shorter intervals for bigger aliens). Being near alien creep increased regen slightly to more normal 1.1 speeds. Being near normal basilisk increased it to around 1.5x speed. Being near adv basilisk or booster increased it to around 2x speed. You don’t have to remove the 1.1 regen or booster to give Adv. Lisk the same regen aura as a booster. It would be fine.
In 1.1, the battlesuit hitbox locations and sizes are the exact same as the normal human hitboxes. In GPP they increased the hitboxes of the battlesuit to more accurately fit the model at the expense of making aiming for the head different depending on what kind of human you were attacking (armour vs suit).
This is incredibly annoying because it means that a single kill might result in NOBODY getting an evo. Theoretically, a team of 6 people could have 5 kills with none of them actually having a full evo. In GPP, evolve points were split into 400 parts, and it was really annoying a lot of the time. It helps bad players get evos while taking evos from the people who actually got the kill. Tying into what I said in the other thread, if you don’t get the full kill, you don’t deserve the evos. You failed, and you should not be rewarded for failing just because you didn’t fail as badly as you could have.
In 1.1 vanilla the distribution of the evos is more complicated than that, the full evo doesn’t go to the player who got the kill. It is roughly based on if you dealt the majority of damage towards a given evo increment, you are the one that gets that whole evo. If upon a human player’s death, alien A did 80% of an evo worth of damage to that human player, alien B did 30% of an evo worth of damage to that same human player (so a total of 110% of damage was done by both), and no other alien players did damage to that human player, both aliens would be getting 1 full evo regardless of which alien killed that human, or even if that human was killed by buildables/suicide/tk/deathzone/etc.
As I have said, the purpose of this particular game mode is to make the old 1.1 servers completely obsolete with the availability of 1.3. For this particular game mode, even if us GrangerHub developers completely disagree with some of the the final choices of the overall hardcore Tremulous 1.1 vanilla players for the game play specifics of this particular game mode, we are going with the hardcore player’s choices.
We are working on a third game mode that in my opinion will be much better than what fine-tuning Vanilla game play or gpp game play can achieve. So it is ok for this Vanilla game mode to be designed to the overall hardcore Tremulous 1.1 player’s specifications exactly.
No single game play for Tremulous can be designed that will satisfy everyone, Tremulous needs variety, which is why we are going to be including 3 game modes in the initial release (and at some point look into implement a mutator engine) . Not to mention, I personally enjoyed playing on different active servers with different game plays, depending on what I felt like playing at the time. I’m looking forward to seeing the kinds of modded servers that will pop up after we release 1.3.
This is only true if the human was WORTH more than 1 evo. If it was a nude rifle, and one dretch gets a headbite on him, and the other gets a foot bite, no matter which order it happens in the dretch that got the headbite will get the evo. However, you are correct to a degree for when humans give 2 or more evos.
This would only fix the problems of fractional evos in scrims. In public games, even if you have 99% of an evo, if the 1% went to somebody who doesn’t like you, you’re probably not getting that 1% of an evo and you probably won’t get to evolve. If a shitty player who doesn’t know what console is does one footbite to a human then you swoop in and get a headbite, you’re not going to get to go basilisk.
You still seem to stubbornly hold on to the belief that Tremulous will somehow suddenly get a large, thriving community again that will actually allow for a large number of mods and servers to exist and be populated. As it is, Tremulous barely has enough players that you could justify having two populated servers at once. When a scrim happens, half of the time it empties the public server because there aren’t enough players left on the server to play fun games, especially when the good players are the ones leaving the server, leaving only the detritus of what is the Tremulous community to remain. There is no chance of a large variety of modded servers popping up, and even if they did, it would be a bad thing because it would further separate the community and result in smaller and less fun games. (Then again, if the GPP players all went away again, maybe the good 1.1 players would actually be able to play against good opponents more consistently…)
Furthermore, if the majority of Tremulous players cared about having a variety of game modes, you wouldn’t see so many die-hard 1.1 fans, players who never leave the X group of servers, players who quit when their favorite modded server died. People who still play Tremulous play it because it’s Tremulous. Some even only play because it’s 1.1 Tremulous. If the choices were between GPP and no Tremulous, I know tons of people would pick no Tremulous. (Thus why Tremulous split in ~2010.)
even though everyone would vote 1.1 because they’re stubborn little fuckbois i’d like a version of trem that has 1.1 combat (fully, no bullshit even with basi or mara jumps, only 1.1 combat) but gpp building, let’s be honest: the half circle turret spam bases are fucking boring and don’t require any skill or knowledge to build, the only thing you need to know is ret line of sight to rc but that’s it.
So many 1.1 players claim gpp gameplay is unskilled, and it is, but gpp building requires way more skill and requires an iq > 80 rather than 1.1 so if you’re not even going to try it you’re a hypocrite bitchboy, just throwing it out there maejong.
From what I’ve picked up this is how evos are valued.
Nude rifle: 1 evo.
Helmed/larmour who had USED their medkit prior to death: 2 evos, the alien who made them use their evo gets 1, the one who finished them off gets the other.
Larmour/Helm/Luci or Bsuit): 3 evos, one for the medkit use, one for the high class weapon/armour, and one for the death.
Larmour/Helm/Jetpack or Battpack: 3 evos, one for the medkit use, one for the high class backpack, and one for the death.
^^That’s what I’ve gathered just from personally playing, tell me if I’m wrong or right.
I think this is wrong. I’m pretty sure it’s based on money spent by the human. I know that buying a grenade can be the difference between 1 evo and 2. I know that a battpack boosts the amount high enough for there to be a second evo with MD. Etc.
that’s not the only possible explanation other possibility is for example that everyone really hates some of the ideas proposed in newer versions. maybe that’s a suggestion to put pressure on feedback, A/B testing, statistics and user experience rather than on adding as many as possible random ideas. that’s just not the way most popular products are created
that’s true. and i really miss ubp games on big maps where both teams actually built forward bases, defended them and attacking different bases at the same time. there was much more strategy in that. but if additionally i have to deal with all other ‘improvements’ then… i prefer to stick to 1.1
Today’s GrangerHub Development Games with the current implementation of the Vanilla Game Mode will be beginning on the test7341 in about 2 hours and 30 minutes from the time that I’m posting this.
Which is why we are making the choice of available Tremulous game plays in 1.3 an inclusive or, and not an exclusive or. One of the ways the split of the Tremulous community between 1.1 and gpp could have been avoided was if 1.1 vanilla game play was available as an option for 1.2 servers. We are including both 1.1 vanilla game play, and gpp vanilla game play as options for 1.3 servers (besides also the new third basic game play we are designing).
I do believe that there is a high probability that the Tremulous community will grow greatly after GrangerHub has its initial release of 1.3 in a way that there will be many active servers with different game plays to choose from, and the reason the community hasn’t been significantly growing yet is because 1.3 hasn’t been released yet, that would address the obstacles that hold the Tremulous community back. I could also be completely wrong, but we will find out after the initial release.
But regardless what will ultimately result, lets focus on fine-tuning the Vanilla game mode of 1.3 so that we can finally scrap that buggy old qvm with messy inefficient code that is currently being used by GrangerPub and GrangerClub.
There are currently 3 basic game modes that are planned to be included in GrangerHub’s initial release (Vanilla, Chocolate, and Swirl), and I will go into detail about the game modes in general very soon in another topic, and discuss the other 2 game modes in detail as well. But for this topic lets keep the discussions focused on just the one game mode this topic is meant for:
Vanilla Game Mode: This game mode is what this thread is all about designing/perfecting. We are only going to be including one version if this game mode in the initial release, and if generally the hardcore Tremulous 1.1 players decide to keep that game mode pure with all the original features/values/etc, we will make it so (we won’t be reintroducing old bugs however, but we can simulate their effects to the game play if that is important).
I should mention that this game mode is just about features, improvements, bug fixes, etc directly related to the Vanilla game play. Other features/improvements that are independent from which game mode is used, such as map selection, renderers, assets, communication/chat, admin systems/commands, HUDs, the UI, and so on, are all subjects for different forum topics.
Also discussions about other game plays should be in a/some other topic(s), unless we are talking about the possibility of borrowing features/improvements from those game plays for the Vanilla game mode, or comparing Vanilla game mode aspects directly with specific aspects of other game plays.
Bravo. This. +1. This man understands the community.[quote=“dGr8LookinSparky, post:25, topic:1241”]
As I have said, the purpose of this particular game mode is to make the old 1.1 servers completely obsolete with the availability of 1.3. For this particular game mode, even if us GrangerHub developers completely disagree with some of the the final choices of the overall hardcore Tremulous 1.1 vanilla players for the game play specifics of this particular game mode, we are going with the hardcore player’s choices.
[/quote]
As I have said, I will believe you when you prove this to be true.
ok wow this thread has a lot of replies, I don’t neccessarily have time to go over all the suggestions/feedback/ideas in detail atm but I have made some more changes based off initial discussion here.
regular basi regen is now gone, only adv basilisk has regen now, with a modifier of 2.0x
the psaw change will stay for now, it’s the same range as basi grab range with even less width and height, i don’t think it’ll be too overwhelming, and i’d like to see it tried in game.
i agree with this, i don’t want to make any changes to it atm, lets see how the other changes pan out, the idea that goon should always be able to take out a bsuit doesn’t feel right. i think it should be possible if you play it mostly correct, but otherwise i don’t want to undervalue it any more than it is.
also with marked deconstruction, the bp regen really does play a big part in what you do with your structures, and is quite damaging when you build willy nilly, i don’t think the strategy and difficult of base moves will be effected in the negative way being thought of.
also there are the many times people end up forgetting to mark stuff and still have their buildings get taken hostage, which is always humorable.
once again, if it does become a terrible change i will revert it, i’d like to see it tried in game with all the other changes first though.
time evo’s will be disabled.
evo calculation and rewards will be kept the same as 1.1 for now (no fractional evos)
I like this idea, though it’ll need to be discussed more before being implemented, such as how much each structure gives, and other important details for it as to make it a overwhelming change.
the goal with the chaingun nerf was to make it’s focus on bigger aliens (i/e dragoon, tyrant). At close range all the bullets will still hit the tyrant/dragoon, and the knockback is still noticable, just not completely obnoxious. i don’t think these changes really nerf the chaingun all that much,i’d like to see how it turns out in a dev game first, but if in testing it turns out to be too much of a bad deal, i’ll revert.
in gpp aliens had 150 base bp, and humans repeaters gave humans 20 bp seperate from their main base bp in the specific zone the repeater is in, which made for a lot better building opportunities for both teams combined with other building changes, i’d like to look into those later.
continuing my earlier point, gpp building was lots of fun. also thinks for bringing up that guide, it’s actually a really quality guide and pretty much all clans in gpp at the time followed it. meisselli and the ddos gang were easily the clan in gpp, and were responsible for finding and bringing many new strategies to the table that gpp provided.
this is already implemented.
i’ll update the changelog (with new commands and server features) for the dev game on saturday, right now i am incredibly tired and hungry and busy with schoolwork
sorry for anyone i didn’t get to quite yet, i shall soon.
thanks for all the feedback ya’ll, much appreciated!!!
In 1.1 vanilla, the bp from a killed buildable comes back all at once shortly after it is killed. In gpp vanilla, the bp from a killed buildable is essentially added to a queue, and the bp from that que returns gradually one bp at a time every X amount of time, which is set by two cvars: g_alienBuildQueueTime (which has a default of 1 bp every 12 seconds), and g_humanBuildQueueTime (which has a default of 1 bp every 8 seconds.
Rather than reverting that gpp vanilla approach to pure 1.1 vanilla, I was thinking of just drastically reducing those defualt values. Should that algorithm be kept as is? If so what should the new default values for the Vanilla Game Mode be set to in this aspect? If the current algorithm should not be kept as is, what should the algorithm be for Vanilla Game Mode?
One of the significant differences between the 1.1 vanilla and gpp vanilla approaches is that in 1.1 vanilla, the bp from any killed buildable is returned the same amount of time after said buildable is killed, no matter how many buildables might have been killed roughly simultaneously. With the gpp queue approach, since only one bp is returned at a time, more buildables being killed while there is still reclaimable bp in that queue would result in longer time for all the bp to be returned, which might not be a bad thing if that rate is set to an appropriate value. Should we try for both teams .5 seconds to regain one bp?
I like this idea. This favors players such as bird and I heavily. Offensive players are rewarded with smaller enemy bases upon each subsequent rush. This would change ATCS immensely.
other possibility is for example that everyone really hates some of the ideas proposed in newer versions. maybe that’s a suggestion to put pressure on feedback, A/B testing, statistics and user experience rather than on adding as many as possible random ideas. that’s just not the way most popular products are created