If by “the server” you are referring to GrangerPub, that is irrelevant as the poll and topic is not server specific.
You have criticized the data when it is used to make points in opposition to your views, and then you refer to parts of the same data when you can see ways to interpret those parts to support your views. In other words you disagree with the same premises that you use for your explanations of your assumed conclusions.
You neglect to mention the fact that on GrangerPub ATCS votes also continue to fail on a regular bases as well.
No that point I made is very relevant, it indicates that as a whole for the voter base, the average desired frequency for playing atcs is roughly moderate. Combined with the fact that 87% of the voters would want a rotation that includes maps other than atcs indicates that a large majority of the voterbase would not be satisfied with playing atcs all of the time on Tremulous. This poll isn’t about the quality of the atcs map, nor about if it is a favorite in the community or not, this poll shows that for a large majority of the voter base, there is a limit to their desired frequency of playing that map over all other maps, and to satisfy the voter base as a whole, there needs to be an optimized map selection system that includes maps other than atcs (even with atcs included in that system).
Conclusion: A large majority of the voters are not in extreme oppose to atcs,
why? because only 29% are extremely opposed to atcs so 71% (a large majority) are not. so let’s stop manipulate the data: 3.6 is closer to major than to minor. what the majority wants? 53% (the majority) want atcs to have major or more role on the server. or looking from the other side: 62% want it to have major or less. no matter how will dress that numbers in words it will still give you ‘atcs’ and ‘major’ together.
what’s left is just arguing what ‘major’ means. if we have rotation with 100 different maps, each of them played once and atcs played 2 times will it still be major? i don’t know. for sure it’s at least ‘more than average’
Well, I did point out that both extremes are in the minority (even though the extreme ATCS opposing minority is over twice the size of the extreme ATCS favoring minority, and both the extremes together account for 42%).
But it is true that there is some subjectivity in the terminology of the middle three options, and some voters might have chosen one of the other of those middle options given more precise interpretation of “minor”, “major” (maybe a better term instead of “major” would have been “important”, but even that is subject to interpretation) , and “dominant”.
The point is that a majority is not in the extremes, and large majorities are not in a given extreme. So the overall average preference of this voter base is some kind of mix of playing atcs with other maps. The specifics of what that mix should be is not answered by this poll.
The options are not meant to be a comparison to an existing server (such as the current GrangerPub), the options are regarding a specific choice in a voter’s dream Tremulous server.
Tremulous is more than a single server. Additionally, there are many other issues related to trem servers, especially in regards to the current qvm that GrangerPub uses (multiprotocol slacker’s qvm), that the scenario of one’s dream Tremulous server isolates the issue of the desired frequency of playing the ATCS map.
I believe GrangerHub should be a place where anyone should be able to challenge anything (within the rules) regardless of their status or relationship with others. I have decided to take a critical look at this thread, after reading the following response:
Language is a very important thing to consider when creating a poll. Questions can be worded in ways that can (whether intentionally or not) confuse or divert voters to a conclusion, making that conclusion flawed.
This is the thread’s initial question:
Yet, days later, Sparky makes this conclusion:
Now before I take Sparky out of context, its worth reading his entire post. This conclusion stems from MATH he used based on the poll results. The reason I use the term “MATH” is because I (personally) fucking suck ass at math, so I won’t even bother touching that logic with a 15-foot pole. I’m not DevHC. I’m not Menace. Hell, I’m pretty sure Burrito is more competent through googling a calculator.
not to say burrito is a dum dum, just keeping it realz like my mexican bean wraps bae 8)
Now that I have established my weakness, I still believe I have an argument to make. My problem is summed up with the following quote:
Seeing how Sparky created this poll, ultimately only he would know. However, I don’t see the harm in making some room for a few guesses:
If the purpose of this poll is to gauge interest in ATCS through a “dream” scenario, then I don’t see the harm, but I also don’t see the point. Is it for GrangerPub? For Tremulous? For fun? Why was the poll made? What are it’s implications? I think these sorts of questions needed to be specified to the voter.
If the purpose is come to a conclusion of gauging user “favor” of ATCS, then I believe the poll was NOT created accurately to arrive at this conclusion. The poll questions are basically “ATCS will be [INSERTPREFERENCEHERE] to play on my dream server”. Therefore, any conclusion has to consider the dream server as a factor.
[quote=“dGr8LookinSparky, post:19, topic:1386”]
The point of this poll is to be as inclusive as possible and show that the player-base is not balck and white on this issue. I’m most interested in seeing the distribution, as well as the resulting discussion.
[/quote]
The poll has inherent flaws, ones brought up in this very thread. For example, a “dream” server is vague, as its qualities means different things to different people that would affect ATCS’ existence in their map rotation.
In addition, someone’s need to include ATCS in their rotation does not speak if their personal thoughts about ATCS. One’s dream server can simply be having every Tremulous map ever existed in rotation, thus imploding the purpose of the poll. Other examples include:
Basically, the poll choices are far more numerous than necessary, and thusdrawing any conclusion from them will become increasingly difficult to gauge objectively.
[quote=“dGr8LookinSparky, post:19, topic:1386”]
if there were only two choices between those two extremes, only two minorities would be compared, and likely leave out the majority of the players. [/quote]
Sparky’s argument is basically "If it was Yes/No, those would be (minority???) opinions that don’t include opinions like:
Sure. However, we are on GrangerHub. One part of a niche community (willing to register and post) that makes up Tremulous. And Tremulous is basically a standalone, glorified Quake 3 Gloom clone that attracts the darkest parts of the internet. A poll on GrangerHub can’t possibly encompass everyone’s thoughts on ATCS in the first place.
Also;
I don’t think the poll takes GrangerPub (the server) into account, so disregard that. The thing to take away Shuffle from is that the poll is better off taking votes from people playing the game, not GrangerHub posters.
Also;
Which I agree. Especially for the English-impaired, the poll doesn’t distinguish the difference. Perhaps Sparky thought the poll implies a radiant (From “FUCK ATCS” to “GOD I LOVE ATCS”) however these choices can also mean that “dominant” is more important than “major”. Its confusing.
Also;
Is it really? I believe this poll suffers from a case of the Framing Effect.
The framing effect is an example of cognitive bias, in which people react to a particular choice in different ways depending on how it is presented; e.g. as a loss or as a gain.
The poll is set up in such a way that people who hate, dislike, don’t enjoy or don’t play ATCS are inclined to vote for a limited option while the rest are scattered in others.
Yet, going back to your conclusion:
Therefore:
No. Fuck you. Thats a nice opinion Sparky, but your opinion is bullshit. That is not how the poll was set up. The poll was about a dream server rotation, not their taste in playing a variety of maps. Not only do I disagree with you Sparky, but I implore you to reconsider an entirely different way of obtaining user statistics.
hurr hendrich calling out sparky dis is fun #shotsfired#modwars#pplgettingMOD#yolo
And fuck you too. Even if I think this was ultimately retarded, atleast I can respect Sparky for his intention of taking the initiative to address ATCS and respond to dissent, rather than bust his balls completely and accomplish nothing.
Instead of that, we should look at this thread and ask ourselves: What should we take away from this thread?
TL;DR In my opinion, Sparky’s poll failed because we need a better way to track statistics in-game rather on on a forum post. We should be working together in pushing for a tracker with objective numbers. We should be seeking data first and conclusions last, no the other way around.
I placed this topic in the Mapping category for a reason. This is meant to gauge the desired ideal frequency of playing ATCS independent from the type of server it is played on, as specifics to a given server can introduce a lot of other factors complicating the issue.
Yes Tremulous and its community is unique, but Tremulous’s community does not have a singular taste, it is currently composed of 1.1 vanilla players, 1.1 modded players, gpp modded players, returning players from 1.1’s past, returning players from gpp’s past, and new players. While a one dimensional poll can’t cover everyone’s thoughts on the frequency of ATCS (detailed thoughts is what replies are for), frequency is a one dimensional value, and the desired frequency of playing atcs for a particular player would be somewhere on that one dimensional spectrum, and to best represent that 1 dimensional value with several finite choices, fuzzy ranges are used for some of those options. Yes there is slop introduced by the fuzzyness, but the “outer” 4 options are crisp absolute options, and general observations can still be made (at least about those who vote).
The poll is about the desired ideal frequency of playing on atcs. I did not say anything about a taste in variety of maps, rather I referred to a variety of tastes in maps, there is a subtle but significant difference. One such instance of the variety of tastes is to play one map (in this case atcs) only, which in itself is not a taste for variety. Another possible taste is playing only one or two other maps besides besides atcs to some degree, which again is not a taste in variety. Another taste might be to play one or two or a few maps but never atcs, which again is not a taste in variety. But, there is a variety in tastes, for this voter base at least.
Looking at the membership of GrangerHub’s forums at this point in time, I’m confident that all of the voters are either current or formerly active Tremulous players. But it can’t be said if those who voted are a good representative sample space of the forum members, and it can’t be said if those who are members of the forums are a good representative sample space of the current playerbase. Which is why in my conclusions I refer only to the voter base. But it can be said that there exists players that are distributed throughout this spectrum.
But regardless, I know that a forum poll would yeild little to no actionable information in terms of specific servers’ rotations. But it does show that there aren’t only two or 3 people who don’t want to play atcs exclusively on Trem, and it does bring into discussion and question a highly controversial issue in Tremulous.
A Tracker would collect and analyze data, but it doesn’t generate the data. If inaccurate, or irrelevant data is entered into the best Tracker, the resulting analysis would not reflect reality (that is, garbage in, garbage out) . What is needed before even the tracker, is a better map selection system that better executes the will of the player base overall.
i would also suggest to state the success criteria at start. i would like to hear from the beginning something like:
‘this poll will change nothing on gpub because it’s about your dream server’ or ‘average response from this poll will be used to indicate how often atcs will appear in rotation’. because if there is no such thing, one can always say:
None of my stated conclusions mentioned any server in particular, not to mention this topic is in the Mapping category, and not a server category, since this topic is related to A.T.C.S. on Tremulous in general.