Complaints about not having Unreleased code yet

Tremulous
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4 posts were merged into an existing topic: TODO List for the Initial release of Tremulous 1.3

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Because of people who want to use the code in their own projects? Tell me GrangerHub doesn’t restrict access to the code for political reasons (including internal politics, see here).

Who would have thought, right?

Still light years ahead of Deadonarrivalous 1.3.

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This link is dead. :confused:

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So why is the code kept secret? That’s the exact opposite of ‘open.’

An example of a project failing because it was open-sourced and/or not kept in development limbo? I’ve never heard of such a thing.

Really, no evidence at all? What about the shrinking player base? What about the disappearing developers? What about Unvanquished? Tremulous 1.3 will become obsolete the moment the beta is released. What about the lack of community support?

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@enneract , and everyone else who may be interested in independently developing for Tremulous 1.3 who are not currently on GrangerHub’s development team, I have very good news, at this very moment you can independently contribute new open source code to GrangerHub’s Tremulous 1.3 project and help with making the Tremulous 1.3 release occur earlier.

Most of the code that Tremulous 1.3 uses has already been open source. Additionally, a lot of the remaining work on the TODO for the initial release can be done based only on the currently open source code without needing access to the unreleased Tremulous 1.3 code.

Some examples of things that independent Tremulous developers could contribute twoards with just access to the relevant code already available to the public:

  • Implement database support that is entirely serverside and works with blowFish’s server side admin system

  • Any of the server side and client side features that blowFish is developing in his public repo

  • Help get the installer/launcher/updater as well as the pre-release client ready enough for the public testing (the sooner this is done, the sooner the playerbase will be switching over to the newer client and have access to the protocol that the latest public server codes uses, and if independent developers wanted to, they could host their own servers with that protocol before 1.3 is released).

  • Implement the karma system based blowFish’s flag system overhaul

  • Implement server-side demos

  • Implement a FoV (offset) slide in the menus

  • Implement Waypoints

  • Implement an Admin UI

  • Implement Scrim feaatures

  • Implement a system where all player/admin reports/appeals can be done in-game

  • Implement TremCam

  • Or if you would like, you could work on features/enhancements that we don’t have on our TODO, and once finished, you could post on these forums your patch and make a case for why we should include it in 1.3.

If you develop any code that you would like to be included in the 1.3 code for the initial release, you can post on these forums a patch, or a link to the relevant commit(s) in your public repo(s), and/or submit a pull request to blowFish’s public repo linked above or to the corresponding public updater/launcher repo.

There are also other ways besides coding that people can help contribute to the 1.3 project without having access to GrangerHub’s unreleased 1.3 repo.

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Unreleased =/= Secret. @DevHC has already explained this (pinging you) in this very thread:

Yet, you have ignored this explanation and worded the non-release as “code” being kept “secret”. Unless you have evidence of malicious behavior (in it’s own thread), please do not mislead people with the impression of malice being conducted. This behavior may make people question your intentions, rather than the developers.

My point was that you failed to show how your example applies to Tremulous 1.3. The reason your example is inadequate is because Limit Theory was abandoned.

These were things happening to Tremulous regardless of GrangerHub. Most importantly, they fail to show that Tremulous 1.3 is being abandoned. This thread is a testament to it’s continued development.

Your opinion is duly noted, but I don’t agree with it.

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What’s the difference?

I know, I know. I should never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

On the other hand, you do seem to be using access to code for petty politics, so the whole “dGr8LookinSparky got butthurt on New Edge and this is his revenge” hypothesis might not be completely unreasonable…

Why do my intentions matter? I thought the whole point of open source is that you let people do whatever they like with the code. And there are other people, who aren’t programmers, who are asking for the code too. What are their evil intentions?

And GrangerHub has done nothing to fix the problems.

Why not? Unvanquished is everything Tremulous 1.3 is trying to be and much more.

What’s the point if I can’t build and test the entire game?

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I’ll say to you what I say to immigrants.

INTEGRATE OR GTFO

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You made my day

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Fine.

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With the currently publicly available code and basic Tremulous development skills you can build and test complete Tremulous game servers with any modifications you may apply, you can build and test complete Tremulous clients with any modifications you may apply, and you can build and test the launcher/updater stuff with any modifications you may apply. All such modifications if done based on any of the above linked repos, can generally be compatible with 1.3 code. You just can’t build and test the unreleased 1.3 code yet, But that does not prevent anyone with the interest and skills from developing for Tremulous, nor even from contributing towards this 1.3 project so that we can have the initial release even S00N3R™, at which point everyone can have the currently unreleased 1.3 code.

@enneract , you say you want to develop for Tremulous, you imply that you would help complete the items on this TODO for 1.3 if you could, if that is true good for you. I have just shown you, and others who may be interested in doing the things you say you are interested in doing, in detail how someone not in GrangerHub’s development team can do those things now if they have the interest and skill to do so.

Of course if someone prefers to spend their spare time whining with excuses why they won’t do something they can do but claim they want to do, rather than actually doing it, that is their choice to make and their spare time and energy to waste.

As a great philosopher once said:

You can’t always get what you want…but if you try sometimes you may find…you get what you need.

With that said, lets keep this thread productive and on topic regarding the TODO list, in terms of which items on the list should stay, be removed, or added, and with updates of changes in the status of the items.

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It does. Your monopoly¹ on the multiprotocol code means that no one else but you can host a server (that has any players). Since developing requires feedback from players², developers are forced to either go away or work for you (which I myself am not going to do, because I’m not going to support an closed-source project).

¹ Of course other people can come up with their own multiprotocol solution but how many experienced developers who care enough are there left in this dying community?
² FYI I’m only interested in gameplay changes.

Indeed, a lot more things on the TODO list would have been completed if you actually worked on them instead of just talking, moving deadlines and making up excuses.

This is just trolling.

Attack the opponent then immediately end the discussion. So much for an open debate. I do agree that the discussion should stay on topic though, but the appropriate thread got closed.

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Like I said, integrate or GTFO. Respect the laws of the land you are in (this community) and everything will be just great, stop trying to shove your sharia law (open-source) down our throats and keep your grubby paws where they belong (up ur ASS).

Of course immigrants can steal our tax payer dollars! Nobody from a dying country ravaged by war has experience, so why should they have to work?

Just like some immigrants are only interested in things that suit their NIGGERISM. LIKE RAPING WOMEN.

WE ARE WORKING ON THINGS OUR OWN POPULATION WANT NOT YOU FILTHY IMMIGRANTS FROM NEWEDGEAZSTAN.

ZOMG racism and discrimination so much for free speech!!! PRAISE ALLAH!!!1111111111111111111111111

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That is not a valid excuse to feel entitled to the release of un-released code. You will have it, SOON™.

I believe a more appropriate consolidation of what @Ckit is getting across is that you have several options available to you [INTEGRATE = join the team, work whatever code is available, fork, work on your own code, etc] and instead you default to claiming the code is being kept “secret” when in fact its not available because it isn’t released. Thus, you do nothing (AKA not [INTEGRATED] with development towards Tremulous).

I have noticed a trend where you ignore this explanation and continue pushing this narrative. Over and over again.

To be fair, “attacking the opponent” isn’t irrelevant nor a unreasonable point to make when you are implying malicious behavior is being conducted by the GrangerHub developers without evidence (intentionally withholding code because of secrets, political drama, etc). As @DevHC has already shown before:

Additionally:

The very fact that we are still discussing this, in the public, with no formal consequences placed on you, is pretty much the definition of an “open debate”. A more appropriate answer to what happened is that people are no longer willing to respond to you further because you disregard the solutions offered to you and the answers given, ontop of the public knowledge of your less-than-honest intentions of getting the code in the first place.

@dGr8LookinSparky: Quite frankly, this should still be in effect. @enneract has his response and his open forum, but is clear he won’t stop until he get what he wants.

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pls give me the source i want it ty for your time reading this

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FYI I’m not the one who keeps saying this project is “open to all modders” or some other imaginary thing Sparky came up with.

(Since we’ve already established that GrangerHub has nothing to do with a “community to open for all modders and server owners™,” I’m going to drop the whole “you should release the code or you’ll fuck over the entire community, which isn’t nice” argument.)

I don’t feel entitled to it. I was asking you to release, because I thought otherwise the whole project would fail. (Past tense since it’s probably too late to do it now anyway.)

That’s my problem. I don’t want to join your team. Unlike you, I believe in open source and also I don’t like the hostile environment.

As I mentioned earlier, I was skeptical of this idea myself until DevHC posted that “A random story” thread.

Right, so GrangerHub¹ is pointless to all modders and server owners? Is this the “setting in motion the flourishing of a community” you mentioned?

¹ Until the release™, of course, but it’ll probably never happen.

Why?

I’m curious, what licensing restrictions?

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however, GH has everything to do with being „open to all non-evil modders and server owners”.

ROFL ! open source is a reality, whether u believe in it or not; it’s not an arbitrary choice like whether u believe in some g0d or another (or multiple, or none). also, the keeping of evil under control (with neligible consequences for the good, until the release) is also a reality.

just for the record, DICKBUTTs r malicious.

PS: random11NOT

zomfg, the set of modders plus server owners consists solely of 1 evil entity, being @enneract !

yes. we shall not allow the proceedings until we’ve gathered strength for the good, against the evil.

because it implies that the developer has no fucking idea on how to conceive epic design, to the extent of the said reliance. public testing after development (intending to mean no pre-development static analysis of the designs) is a trial-and-error scheme necessarily employed by those with a lack of independent ability to conceive.

there r players who like to indefinitely play around with instantly developed random_crap features, like ”/gimme_magic_rock_flying_around_me” and „/set_damage lucifer_cannon 99999”. but many players, especially serious, hardcore players, get annoyed by games that r not well-designed and done.

the GPL conditions that say that one can’t release „just the binaries”.

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I meant that I believed open source was the best way to develop things. Not sure how you missed it, maybe you were just looking to make a low-effort ad hominem (as usual).

So GrangerHub is essentially flipping off the entire remaining modding community in Tremulous?

It’s not just about me and New Edge. Developers in general tend to give back to the project they forked/used code from (see: Linux). This is, of course, not possible if the code isn’t public.

Releasing the code would also end this giant PR disaster, which would probably help Tremulous 1.3.

How fucking ironic that GrangerHub is stealing code from _me_¹, not the other way around), yet I’m the one being called a “thief.”

¹ Where am I credited for the Jetpack code used on the test server?

Why was Ckit’s post flagged? At least he was being straightforward.

I meant the trolling.

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the bare interpretation was stupid, but i didn’t attempt to fill in the blanks, because if u want to influence someone by communication, then it’s, in general, ur job to make interpreting as straightforward as possible.

so now there’s a real modding community again ? make up ur mind !

which is why the project is open source. except for a very small part, in which we’re not looking for new contributions, so no PROBLEM there.

i kind of like it.

right here: „Copyright (C) 2000-201? Darklegion Development”.

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  1. @enneract is the set of modders plus server owners
  2. Modders plus server owners == the modding community
  3. You’re flipping off @enneract
  4. Therefore you’re flipping off the modding community
    Q.E.D.

I never claimed there’s a real modding community. On the contrary.

The problem is that you won’t have any contributions if no one else can build the whole thing.

Am I Darklegion Development?